Turbocharger assisted Aerodynamics in 2014 and beyond

[PlatinumZealot]

This is one rendition of the air intake. Hopefully the control arms don't get in the way of forward viewing of these openings!

[PlatinumZealot]

I know having the engine intake on the side pods is asking a bit much from the limited space inside the side pods, especially in light to the addition of an inter cooler, but i think it is a sound design.

[wuzak]

Re a blow-off valve - I'm not sure that it will be necessary.

Why? The blow off valve is to protect the engine when the throttles are shut and the turbo's momentum means it is still pumping air, against a much restricted air path - remember that even with closed throttles the engine will still have air passing through it.

The MGU-H will be able to stop the compressor completely if it needs to. It certainly will be able to rapidly slow the compressor down to an appropriate speed. And while it is doing that it will be generating power for the ES.

Recall that Renault mentioned the role of the MGU-H in braking energy recovery - this is what they mean. Use the turbo's momentum, which be larger than a normal turbo because of the oversize turbine, to generate power.

Nope. Blow off is to protect the turbocharger not the engine. The engine wont see the pressure spike, but the turbo will!

Engine, turbo, whatever, the pressure spike can be eliminated by stopping the turbo with the MGU-H, or at least slowing it down to the required level.

[ringo]

It will still damge the compressor. The pressure spike is not related to the mechanical connection of the turbine. It's from the air that has already been compressed and the unstable nature of that air.
And stopping something from 125,000 rpm to zero in mere miliseconds doesn't sound very protective.

Compressor surge is something that is transient, It's just simply less trouble and headache to put a blow of valve and route the air back before the compressor.
We can't apportion everything to the MGUH, and even if someone did know how to attempt to prevent surge by slowing and speeding the turbo alternatingly, i doubt it could be in sync with the random nature of compressor surge and prevent the phenomena in the first place. Putting a blow off valve is just a simple no brainer. It doesn't cost any real weight or technical investment.

In fact i think from the regs, the bov has to put the air back into the compressor. Dumping air to the atmosphere may not be an option.

[wuzak]

In fact i think from the regs, the bov has to put the air back into the compressor. Dumping air to the atmosphere may not be an option.

Has to dump it in the exhaust.

[neilbah]

Im not going to say no one will run a BOV. I can see why there are fitted to turbo engines, but i question the need for one in this application when there is the for mentioned alternative.

what pressure are we talking about here? 1bar 2 bar? i doubt well be up with the 3-4 bar turbos of the 80s. My point is that plenty of turbo systems have operated in the past, and covered high mileage without BOV..including race cars and yes you can have surge which is a fairly big -ve but the compressor doesnt just instantly stop but i suppose the time taken to slow down turbo depends on the inlet tract size and the pressure it will hold, could we have accidental leakage?. Are there regulations for F1 covering how frequently the turbo can be replaced or rebuilt? The thrust bearings will get damaged with time but fail over a 2 hour race..unlikely if the oil and waterways work properly. Im told this surge slowing the impeller causes lag but ive read more so the exhaust side lacking flow is the main cause of lag - hence why some wrc cars cold blow and retard ignition as a form of anti lag. Does the kers applied to spooling the turbo mean there will be a vacuum on the exhaust side if there isnt cold blowing?

[Holm86]

Not closing the throttle bodies will aslo prevent the pressure spike.

[PlatinumZealot]

A blow off valve is so simple and cheap and it works! why reinvent the wheel?
And blow off valves make wonderful noise if there is such a thing.

[Holm86]

A blow off valve is so simple and cheap and it works! why reinvent the wheel?
And blow off valves make wonderful noise if there is such a thing.

Opening the throttles is simpler. They are allready there. And you cant vent into the free atmosphere so you wouldnt be able to hear it anyways!

[PlatinumZealot]

A blow off valve is so simple and cheap and it works! why reinvent the wheel?
And blow off valves make wonderful noise if there is such a thing.

Opening the throttles is simpler. They are allready there. And you cant vent into the free atmosphere so you wouldnt be able to hear it anyways!

So the car is is going to have the throttle open for 100 percent of the race?
What happens when the driver wants to slow the car down? doesn't he have to lift off the throttle to reduce power from the engine (and so save fuel)? Keep in mind Formula 1 throttles are almost like a switch because the driver only has fraction of a second to modulate it during deceleration.

A blow off valve is only a few hundreds bucks Vs long hours and expense of engine tuning to Cold blow/slow the compressor using the MGU. And come to think of it, plumbing the blowoff to the exhaust SAVES FUEL and gives a higher mass flow through the exhaust that cold blowing. Think about it... it is just easier!

[FW17]

A blow off valve is so simple and cheap and it works! why reinvent the wheel?
And blow off valves make wonderful noise if there is such a thing.

Opening the throttles is simpler. They are allready there. And you cant vent into the free atmosphere so you wouldnt be able to hear it anyways!

So the car is is going to have the throttle open for 100 percent of the race?
What happens when the driver wants to slow the car down? doesn't he have to lift off the throttle to reduce power from the engine (and so save fuel)? Keep in mind Formula 1 throttles are almost like a switch because the driver only has fraction of a second to modulate it during deceleration.

A blow off valve is only a few hundreds bucks Vs long hours and expense of engine tuning to Cold blow/slow the compressor using the MGU. And come to think of it, plumbing the blowoff to the exhaust SAVES FUEL and gives a higher mass flow through the exhaust that cold blowing. Think about it... it is just easier!

Nothing in f1 costs a few hundred bucks

[langwadt]

A blow off valve is so simple and cheap and it works! why reinvent the wheel?
And blow off valves make wonderful noise if there is such a thing.

Opening the throttles is simpler. They are allready there. And you cant vent into the free atmosphere so you wouldnt be able to hear it anyways!

So the car is is going to have the throttle open for 100 percent of the race?
What happens when the driver wants to slow the car down? doesn't he have to lift off the throttle to reduce power from the engine (and so save fuel)? Keep in mind Formula 1 throttles are almost like a switch because the driver only has fraction of a second to modulate it during deceleration.

A blow off valve is only a few hundreds bucks Vs long hours and expense of engine tuning to Cold blow/slow the compressor using the MGU. And come to think of it, plumbing the blowoff to the exhaust SAVES FUEL and gives a higher mass flow through the exhaust that cold blowing. Think about it... it is just easier!

Throttle plates = the plates that control air into the engine
Accelerator = the pedal the driver controls with his right foot
it is drive-by-wire there is no mechanical link between the accelerator and the throttle plates. The accelerator is just an input to the ECU requesting a certain amount of torque. The ECU then provides that torque modulating the fuel, ignition, boost, MGU and possible throttle. The throttle can be open 100% all race if the engine is better controlled by other means

[wuzak]

A blow off valve is so simple and cheap and it works! why reinvent the wheel?
And blow off valves make wonderful noise if there is such a thing.

Opening the throttles is simpler. They are allready there. And you cant vent into the free atmosphere so you wouldnt be able to hear it anyways!

So the car is is going to have the throttle open for 100 percent of the race?
What happens when the driver wants to slow the car down? doesn't he have to lift off the throttle to reduce power from the engine (and so save fuel)? Keep in mind Formula 1 throttles are almost like a switch because the driver only has fraction of a second to modulate it during deceleration.

A blow off valve is only a few hundreds bucks Vs long hours and expense of engine tuning to Cold blow/slow the compressor using the MGU. And come to think of it, plumbing the blowoff to the exhaust SAVES FUEL and gives a higher mass flow through the exhaust that cold blowing. Think about it... it is just easier!

How does having a blow-off valve save fuel?

Considering that the MGU-H can brake the turbo and generate power in that phase?

[avatar]

On the blow off/dump valve question - how much action would it really see with seamless shift?

I can see a Wastegate being used, maybe; to prevent the turbo overspeeding without relying on the MGU, but surely dump is about allowing the turbine to spin while air consumption at the cylinder is lower, leaving it spooled up when youget back on the throttle?

I would have thought a Wastegate + MGU would manage any bootstrapping nastiness, so I'm not sure where the blow off would come into play.

With seamless shift, you're not likely to be off throttle while changing up (so no need to blow off) and I'm not sure you want the turbo spooled up on downshift?

> Dump/blowoff valve = open valve at/after compressor, so air that normally goes from turbo to engine is vented
> Wastegate/bypass = open valve to allow exhaust to bypass the turbine and head straight to the tailpipe (thus not driving the turbine)

[PlatinumZealot]

Down-shifting multiple gears makes that wonderful throttle blip you hear. Can't see the MGU-h or fuel cut with that sort of reaction time.

And don't get me wrong I am fully aware of all these technologies and the tricks that can be employed. Even the mighty Buggatti Veyron has blow off valves. And BMW with their valve-tronic has blow off valves as well. And the blow off on those valvetronic engines is very frequent and audible even at low rpms when the throttle is modulated.