F1 engines 2011

[Sawtooth-spike]

Are they using the Steam from the Boilers with the Turbo to create Extra power?

[Carlos]

Extending MC's thoughts - perhaps superheated steam driving the turbine is used to store energy in a high speed flywheel (60K>100k RPM) which drives the differential with a clutch/gerar assembly ( that large cylinder above the drivehsaft insert-couplings.)

[joseff]

Could a steam circuit also double as the entire cooling system of the engine? This way a normal radiator isn't necessary.

Like the engine that injects water into the combustion chamber for an extra steam power stroke. IIRC that thing ran without any extra cooling systems.

[ss_collins]

what would the safety implications of that be? what could the steam system be made out of?

Not saying whether you are right or not - as I say if you lot keep discussing the way you are you'll figure it all out I reckon - more fun this way - plus at least one person has suggested something really innovative

[millerjam]

I can't believe the turbocharger wouldn't be there in it's normal guise (i.e. to deliver inlet pressure above ambient to cylinder), if you consider this eactly the route that most European and Asian OEMs will be going down in the next few years then it makes a lot of sense.
The turbosteamer (google it, BMW have already come up with a name!) idea has a lot of merits too, but I'm not sure how beneficial it would be downstream of a turbine. What about a system where you get rid of the intercooler and use the heat generated by the compressor to drive another turbine in generating electricity? That way as joseff has already alluded to, you could use the steam loop as your cooling loop too.

[manchild]

What if steam is used to propel a steam machine that would be coupled with main V12 engine to drive the car?

Perhaps with modern materials a steam machine can aid to performance of the car more than electric motor specially having in mind weight of the motor and batteries?

[mx_tifoso]

what's that steam powered machine thats huge and heavy?
o yeah.......
its called a damn train

[manchild]

It's not a train but locomotive. Train requires s composition (at least one wagon attached to locomotive).

Steam machine isn't huge and heavy - steam generator on fossil fuel with coal or wood storage and water tank is huge and heavy. F1 engine with exhaust manifold inside of boilers gives you steam for free as product of heat generated during combustion so when you look the pic below, everything above and behind the driven wheels is just for steam generator while steam machine is just a two cylinder device with on each side of the locomotive.





In those days they didn't use aluminum, carbon fibers, kevlar, titanium. A steam machine (not steam generator) built using modern materials could weight less than 4 stroke engine.

Although original drawing of 2011 V12 might suggest 3 means of driving the engine - V12, electric motor driven by electricity generated by rotation of exhaust gases turbine (or by steam or both - several generators) and by steam machine (directly or using steam machine for driving the generator).

Another thing, compare the size of steam engine of locomotive relative to weight it moved over 100 kph (hundreds of tons). A secondary steam engine for f1 could easily fit anywhere near the gearbox (even several of them).

As for being big and heavy check these links:

http://www.fantasyarts.net/worlds-small ... engine.htm

http://www.fantasyarts.net/nanotechnolo ... engine.avi

[joseff]

I'd imagine the steam in an F1 engine to be quite low-pressure and low-temperature so using a turbine (which needs a constant fluid velocity) would be out of the question. It would be better to use a 2-stage piston engine driving a generator.

This steam engine also wouldn't be on all the time, so coupling it directly to the V12 is not desirable. A solenoid controlled valve in the boiler will only release steam when there's enough pressure to operate efficiently.

The idea of boiler-as-cooler in F1 is actually in the current rulebook: there's a clause forbidding "phase change cooling" so this rule has to go before the F1 steamer gets on the track.

@ss_collins: "what could the steam system be made out of?" I wouldn't give this much thought, I thought steam plumbing is quite common? Hmm, maybe the coolant couldn't be water, because the boiling point is just too high under pressure.

Extra thought: what about using a stirling engine instead?

[joseff]

I'd imagine the steam in an F1 engine to be quite low-pressure and low-temperature so using a turbine (which needs a constant fluid velocity) would be out of the question. It would be better to use a 2-stage piston engine driving a generator.

This steam engine also wouldn't be on all the time, so coupling it directly to the V12 is not desirable. A solenoid controlled valve in the boiler will only release steam when there's enough pressure to operate efficiently.

The idea of boiler-as-cooler in F1 is actually in the current rulebook: there's a clause forbidding "phase change cooling" so this rule has to go before the F1 steamer gets on the track.

@ss_collins: "what could the steam system be made out of?" I wouldn't give this much thought, I thought steam plumbing is quite common? Hmm, maybe the coolant couldn't be water, because the boiling point is just too high under pressure.

Extra thought: what about using a stirling engine instead?

[manchild]

...Extra thought: what about using a stirling engine instead?

Yep, why not.

[ryanjuk]

Deleted

[DaveKillens]

Well, I guess I'll take a kick at the can.
The intakes are non-aspirated, feeding directly into the cylinders. Those boxes on each side of the cylinder banks are just that, boxes. Heavily insulated, to contain the heat energy. The exhaust headers are inside the boxes, we just don't see the fancy plumbing. The exhausts combine from two into a single collector that itself is heavily insulated to maintain as much heat energy. The exhaust then channels into a turbine that converts the heat energy into mechanical energy. The green colored components are to define the drivetrain (apart from the V-12). The long cylinder is an electric motor/generator, connected to the green donut (on the side of the transmission). That green donut on the side of the transmission is a form of transmission, linking the exhaust turbine, transmission, and electric motor together.
Depending on the requirements, the power from the turbine goes either to the electric motors/generator (generating stored power) or to the transmission where it is added to the V-12's torque. Additionally, the stored electrical energy can be fed back into the electrical motor/generator to the donut, and into the transmission.
Under braking, the transmission feeds energy back into the electric motors where it is stored. Under acceleration, the V-12, turbine, and electric motor/generator all deliver mechanical power to the transmission.

[DaveKillens]

Please excuse the ramble, but I've been awake about 20 hours and bleary.
BTW, I sense an axial turbine.

[wrk]

is this the PowerBeam, a kinetic energy storage device.??