will there be a new team in F1?

[Lycoming]

It always amazes me how American road cars get so few horsepower out of 3 and 4 litre engines.

That's because power is proportional to how much air you move through the engine in a given amount of time, and displacement is only half the story there.

of all the chassis makers they pick Dulllara, why not Swift, or Panoz or Lola, I see a train wreak if they go with Dulllara, just look at what they gave HRT a DOG of a car

Swift is a good option, though if they opt to base their operations in the UK, a european supplier becomes more attractive. Lola is out because they went bankrupt and their assets were divided up. What's wrong with Dallara? the monocoque was not the only reason the HRT was so far off the pace. Not to mention, up until the 2014 iteration, Dallara made (but did not design) the tub in Audi's LMP cars.

[astracrazy]

of all the chassis makers they pick Dulllara, why not Swift, or Panoz or Lola, I see a train wreak if they go with Dulllara, just look at what they gave HRT a DOG of a car

This is true but at the same time HRT was supposed to develop the car not Dalarra if not they minus well enter F1..
Failure was on HRT..

racer X +1

plus don't forget dalarra would of built the car on what HRT could afford/pay. Its like anything, you pay for what you get. If HRT could afford double then dalarra put more resources onto the project and out pops a better car...

dalarra aren't going to put £9M* of resources/r&d into a car if HRT are only paying them £5M*

*random numbers

from wiki

Dallara built the cars for the Hispania Racing F1 Team team's entry in the 2010 Formula One season.[2] The Hispania team's financial problems—which delayed payment of money owed to Dallara and the completion of the cars...

which helps explain my point, HRT struggled to even pay for the 2010 car

[Moxie]

Shoot, we'll just get us a coupla good ol' boys to slap one a them Fear R I engines inta one of them old Jordan or Minardi chassis and go racin'. Yeah haw! Shake and bake, baby. Boogedey, boogedey, boogedey. Prolly stick one a them Hurst shifters in there just like we do for the Darlington cars. Heck, how hard can it be? A car's a car, right?

Do NOT hold your breath waiting for the NASSCARification of Formula One. Not in this lifetime and not in your children's lifetime either. :-"

Other things heard around the Haas F1 Paddock:

Hey Cooter, where we s'posed to hide the moonshine in this thing?

Yuk yuk yuk I'm in hot pursuit!!!

[Jersey Tom]

The irony here never ceases to entertain me, closed-minded F1 fans going on about how dumb NASCAR must be, in exactly the same way I'm sure NASCAR fans go on about how pompous or boring F1 is. Particularly on a "technical" forum where you'd think there would be some level of objectivity.

In any event, will be interesting what becomes of the Haas F1 thing. Not sure what to expect. As far as available talent goes, I think one thing which is easily lost on those who don't closely follow the industry is how much cross-pollination there is - and how many F1 / IndyCar / other series engineers have wound up in NASCAR.

If they were to hang around a bit, may even attract some more folks back over from the UK (particularly US natives). Wouldn't take much for the weather and pay to be better!

[Manoah2u]

anybody being so negative about NASCAR, INDY, etc. all the US racing series should take their heads out of their cavities and doing some proper research. It's a different form of tech, doesn't make it hillbilly racing. F1 is high tech, US racing classes are high tech in a totally different way. That's because the direction/aim/concept is different.

Comparing a [classic] corvette, camaro or transam to a lotus, porsche or ferrari simply never works. US cars are designed for US market, EU cars for EU market. American roads and american racing is day and night compared to EU roads and EU racing.
It doesn't make one better or worse then the other - it's different, that's it.

You can take racing drivers as a good example there. Montoya performed well in the US series, and did well in the F1. It can be done. Jaques Villeneuve got good results in US and in F1 [and no, let's not delve into fanboyism or haterism please].
There also are drivers that performed well in US and didn't perform like they were hoping for in F1. Vise versa, there were F1 drivers that went to US series but didn't get the results there they were hoping for.

But ask any of them, and they'll maintain that the sports are totally different. Hell, even GP2 is different to F1, and the concept isn't really that far different. GP2 to F1 has smaller differences then Indy or Champ to F1.

However, that being said, I think the peter windsor USF1 affair has put a huge negative image on US and F1 relationships.
It could be much better. It's sad really, because, the thing is, where did it really go wrong? Does a single person speak for an entire nation? Well Peter windsor sure ain't Obama.......
USF1 actually did make a tub, and perhaps i'm wrong here, but wasn't it actually homologated? Until this day, i wondered, what may have happened should the team not fumbled. I really would have enjoyed seing a completed car.
That never happened tho.
Unfortunately, same can be said for toyota. I really would have enjoyed seeing that never raced contender be part of the grid back then. But toyota pulled out.

Then we have HRT. they surely screwed things up. And to be honest, Caterham nor Marussia [VirginF1] is really showing anything 'special'. I assume this year will be no different.
What it shows is F1 is a difficult place to be. And what it also shows, is, some teams were denied an entry, whilst other teams did, but failed completely.

Dallara shouldn't get the bashing they got just for a lousy HRT/Hispania. Dallara produces the chassis used by the IndyCar Series, Indy Lights, GP2 Series, World Series by Renault, GP3 Series and ADAC Formel Masters. They seem to do a pretty good job there!

What i'd love to see tho is a new 2015 team entry, with a chassis built by Dallara, this time with proper investment and correct payment, so Dallara is ABLE to give their BEST. And a HONDA engine wouldn't look out of the picture there.
New US F1 team, with a fully developed well-backed dallara chassis, and a [paid] Honda engine.

The only thing is, you need the right people there. People that shout YEEHAW and US PRIDE like they'll save the day have shown quite clear that will result in shame. The problem is location and development. How american is a USA team if it needs experienced F1 personel all european on a european location [or british]. Is it then still american?

Which, ultimately makes me very doubtfull of american entries in F1. It'll sound like moist panties for Bernie's $$ commercial wallet. It'll dry out faster then you can blink your eyes though.

And quite frankly, with all the economic turmoil in F1, i couldn't think of a single team that would benefit stepping in.

[Jersey Tom]

I think the peter windsor USF1 affair has put a huge negative image on US and F1

I feel like that can almost be a good thing. You figure a guy like Gene Haas is established enough to secure enough cash.. but if everyone else pays them no mind and they fly under the radar - so much the better. Can only exceed expectations.

[Moxie]

The irony here never ceases to entertain me, closed-minded F1 fans going on about how dumb NASCAR must be, in exactly the same way I'm sure NASCAR fans go on about how pompous or boring F1 is. Particularly on a "technical" forum where you'd think there would be some level of objectivity.

Yeah well...an explanation of sorts, but not really an apology.

Anyone who is familiar with NASCAR history knows that the sport has is origins in moonshine and bootlegging. Indeed, famed team owner Junior Johnson was convicted, imprisoned, and later pardoned by President Ronald Reagan. While I am not a fan of modern NASCAR, it is not because they are stock cars. I remember fondly the era of Cale Yarborough, Harry Gant, and Richard Petty. I still enjoy going to the dirt track and watching the sprints and drinking a few beers on a Saturday night. I am a product of this culture, as my family is very much a moonshine drinkin', blue grass singin', hellfire and damnation preachin' kind of people.

My humor was derived from the popular TV show "The Dukes of Hazzard" which romanticized fast cars and moonshine culture. I was ten years old when that show was on TV and I didn't understand the political implications of the battle flag emblazoned on top of the 1969 charger Today, I take offense at that flag. I take offense at a lot of things that are petty darned insensitive to people of other races, religions, and sexual orientation. In this regard I am occasionally accused of being wound too tight.

The offense to my remarks stuck me by surprise. I have reviewed my remarks multiple times with the intent of preparing an apology. I must say though, I think you are reading too much into my comments, and making assumptions. My intent was not to offend, and I do not think my humor was offensive. That being said, I recognize my own responsibility of understanding my audience. Clearly people here are sensitive and easily offended, therefore I shall make every effort to not make the same mistake again.

[Manoah2u]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haas_Lola





last actual F1 team was back in 86 with, TEAM HAAS. guy [Carl Haas] came from nascar aswell, and funny enough isn't related to Gene Haas. The Team failed.

Gene Haas may be credited with successes and experience in motorsports, he has experience like flavio briatore in tax evading, intimidation and conspiracy.

Criminal tax evasion

On the morning of June 19, 2006, Haas was arrested by IRS agents for investigation of filing false tax returns, witness intimidation, and conspiracy. Four others were indicted together with Haas.

Haas initially pled not guilty, but after all four of the co-indicted plead guilty and just before his case was to go to trial, a plea agreement was reached with Haas pleading guilty on one count.

Haas made full restitution to the IRS and has served a fraction of a 24-month sentence in federal prison. He was released to a halfway house in November 2008. Since February 2009, he has been living at his home and working at Haas Automation.

The owner of the nation's largest computerized machine tool maker was arrested yesterday morning at his California home and charged with orchestrating a tax fraud that cost the government nearly $20 million as well as intimidating witnesses and a federal agent investigating the case

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/20/busin ... .html?_r=0

The 56-year-old owner of Haas Automation Inc. will be released May 10, 2009 from a Los Angeles halfway house, having completed 16 months of a 24-month prison sentence for conspiring to commit tax evasion.

Haas was committed to a Lompoc prison on Jan. 14, 2008, and spent almost a year there before being transferred in November to a halfway house, the Vinewood Re-entry Center in Long Beach.

At his sentencing in November, Haas’ lawyers requested that he be treated for alcohol dependency, and the court recommended him for the Federal Bureau of Prisons’ 500-hour drug and alcohol program.

He participated in the substance abuse program, according to Lompoc spokeswoman Kathleen Shinn, making him eligible for six months in a halfway house and up to one year off of his sentence for successfully completing the program.

http://www.vcstar.com/news/2009/may/03/ ... er-was-of/

just what F1 needs, a recently (just 5 years ago) criminally convicted, alcoholic, team leader whom had no problems
intimidating witnesses and doesn't back from conspiracy? yeah, the 'yankee' equivalent of briatore, that'll be the
last thing f1 needs, and i think ecclestone doesn't really feel warm about Gene Haas regarding Bernie's own money issues
regrading the trial he is finding himself in right now

it would astonish me if Haas would be concidered a grid spot.

[MOWOG]

The offense to my remarks stuck me by surprise.

It appears there are any number of people here who were born without a funny bone. Or are simply incapable of comprehending satire.

If one really wants to examine the roots of NASCAR, you have to go back to the beginning of the sport and Prohibition. Yes, it was largely moonshiners who invented much of the techniques for obtaining more power from stock engines, like the Ford flat head V-8. Running 'shine was mostly associated with the southeast corner of the US and yes, there is absolutely a cultural link between the boys who souped up those street cars to go racin' and the boys who proudly wore the Confederate grey a few generations before. The echoes of the Civil War still reverberate throughout America and those echoes can be heard wherever circle track fans mingle with road racing fans. America is still divided into two largely irreconcilable population groups and the NASCAR crowd, by and large, comes almost exclusively from one of those groups. It was no coincidence that the General Lee in the Dukes of Hazard sported a large Confederate flag on its roof or that it was named after Robert E. Lee, who is still a hero in large segments of the US.

What we now call NASCAR really started after WW II. The "race cars" were whatever wrecks people could get hold of and often looked more fitted for a demolition derby than a car race. Early races were held on the beach at Daytona, which pretty much demanded two straightaways connected by U turns at each end. Throughout America, a culture of oval dirt tracks arose and remains to this day.



European racing arose primarily among wealthy sportsmen who were members of the ruling class. A former US vice-president would have called them and their followers "effete snobs". And the cars were vastly different on either side of "the pond". Many European countries taxed cars according to the power rating of their engines or displacement. This led to a culture that sought to maximize performance from small displacements. In America, if you needed more power, you simply made the engine bigger.

This essential difference in philosophy - high strung, high revving engines with massive technical enhancements on one hand, large displacement, relatively slow turning engines that still use pushrods and carburetors on the other. And the drivers and team owners were just Joe Dinnerpail from Nowheresville, USA. Your cred was determined by your results on the track, not your pedigree.

The differences between racing series and the culture that supports them we see today began long ago. It is unlikely they will ever completely disappear.

12 years ago, I chanced to be in the same airport lobby with David Hobbs following an F1 race at Indianapolis and we got to chatting. He went on at length about the underlying acrimony between the Indy staff and the F1 staff. F1 would not deign to use the office furniture on hand at the track. They brought their own desks, chairs, wastebaskets, fax machines, copiers, carpeting and so forth with them. They clearly held themselves to be superior to the yokels in Indiana and constantly referred to the city as a "cow town". (There may be some truth to that! ) When Michael Andretti drove for McLaren, the tension between Americans and Europeans was palpable.

Quite frankly, there is a an undercurrent of bitterness between European racing culture and American racing culture that continues to this day. Henry Ford gave the go ahead to the GT 40 program solely because he wanted to kick Enzo Ferrari's ass and wipe the smirk of the faces of so many of Europe's racing elite.

All of which is to say that the odds of any American organization finding success in Formula One are long indeed, and a NASCAR group even more so. Btw, I have a friend who lives near Charlotte, North Carolina who tells me the Haas folks are now accepting resumes from people who want to work on the F1 effort. A $5,000 non-refundable application fee is required with each resume submitted. Hmmmmm......wonder if Adrian Newey would have to put up that dough to be considered?

So there's an overview of why NASCAR and Formula One have such a hard time working together. So go ahead, down vote THAT, you ignorant slut!

[Jersey Tom]

Posts which are informative / useful / contribute to the thread tend to get marked positively... posts which are off topic or not useful or a distraction get marked negatively and hidden past some threshold. Simple as that, regardless of whether or not something is "offensive" (it's the internet - who cares?).

Quite frankly, there is a an undercurrent of bitterness between European racing culture and American racing culture that continues to this day. [...] So there's an overview of why NASCAR and Formula One have such a hard time working together.

In my opinion / experience, what you describe may have some truth at the fan level, but not at the professional level. As I alluded to earlier, the professional racing community is a small one - even more so among engineers, and there's quite a bit of cross-pollination between race teams and series.

If an organization has the budget available, the available talent pool is already here - including many already with prior F1 experience, either having come here from Europe (native), or US nationals who spent some years doing European open wheel. So what would hold a US-based organization back from being successful? I'd say the "origins" of the respective sports and what they were in the 60's, 80's, or early 2000's really has little if any bearing on 2014/2015.

I think the most important ingredient to success is good high level organization and professionalism. Everything else downstream falls into place.

[iotar__]

Posts which are informative / useful / contribute to the thread tend to get marked positively... posts which are off topic or not useful or a distraction get marked negatively and hidden past some threshold. Simple as that, regardless of whether or not something is "offensive" (it's the internet - who cares?).

Quite frankly, there is a an undercurrent of bitterness between European racing culture and American racing culture that continues to this day. [...] So there's an overview of why NASCAR and Formula One have such a hard time working together.

In my opinion / experience, what you describe may have some truth at the fan level, but not at the professional level. As I alluded to earlier, the professional racing community is a small one - even more so among engineers, and there's quite a bit of cross-pollination between race teams and series.

If an organization has the budget available, the available talent pool is already here - including many already with prior F1 experience, either having come here from Europe (native), or US nationals who spent some years doing European open wheel. So what would hold a US-based organization back from being successful? I'd say the "origins" of the respective sports and what they were in the 60's, 80's, or early 2000's really has little if any bearing on 2014/2015.

I think the most important ingredient to success is good high level organization and professionalism. Everything else downstream falls into place.

But how long will it take? It may be the best idea for them (I mean US based team from scratch) for various reasons but on intuitive level lack of prior examples points to problems. Can you give a single example of a team starting from scratch and being successful in F1 (recent history of course)? Toyota(?) and out of current ones - not perfect but close enough - Spyker - Force India.

[No hard knowledge, I may be talking out of my a... , b. obvious and oversimplifying] It's not only about being behind when it comes to facilities, production, team as a whole, team as single elements or car design under current regs but also what I'd call accumulated know-how (theory and practice). I think there are reasons that go way back in time that result in Lotus having kind of suspension they had, Merc having problems with tyre management and catching up with it or Force India having no "independent suspension" (you know which one, I forgot the name). Yes, in case of FI budget/size mainly but not exclusively, and even if small team is behind its easier for it to expand, less steps. Now multiply it by 4 other main areas and add the part where the closer you are to the top the more difficult it gets. Even if they had best people, budget and planned facilities their starting point (from rumours) would be car designed in US and built by Dallara.

BTW: 1. if Ecclestone is so keen on US expansion I wonder what kind of incentives/privileges he can offer to American team, ensuing typical F1 drama itself would be worth it. 2. How would new teams fit into commercial FOM agreements, less money for the others? I sense problems: "Do we really need new teams?" -> unrealistic entry barriers, end of story.

[Jersey Tom]

But how long will it take? [...] Can you give a single example of a team starting from scratch and being successful in F1

How long will it take... for what? And how do you define success?

Someone once described to me "success" in the sport as follows. You've got several different performance tiers, let's say 3. You've got the front runners vying for championships, you've got the mid tier group vying for wins, and you've got the bottom tier. Success at the bottom-most tier might be just being the best of your bunch, and vying to attract enough sponsor dollars to move up to the mid tier. Likewise, at the mid tier you want to be the best of your group, maybe win, but attract more sponsor dollars and talent to advance to the top tier. Then at the top, you're more directly going for outright wins and championships.

So how long would it take for Haas F1 to be "successful" ? Certainly at a minimum being able to make the grid, complete races, and have the cash for at least a few seasons would be the most immediate box to check. Beyond that, depends on what they set for a performance target, what their budget winds up being, etc.

[wesley123]

But how long will it take? It may be the best idea for them (I mean US based team from scratch) for various reasons but on intuitive level lack of prior examples points to problems. Can you give a single example of a team starting from scratch and being successful in F1 (recent history of course)? Toyota(?) and out of current ones - not perfect but close enough - Spyker - Force India.

Stewart/Jaguar/Red Bull Racing is the only one I can think of. Took them 13 years for their first title and probably wouldn't have happened when a billionaire came in and offered a large sack of money for a lot of high rated people.

Don't think anyone has the patience to invest in something and wait over 10 years to make it finally pay off.

[cossie]

Guess who works for Haas at Windshear ? yep Ken Anderson of USF1 fame. And the past 2 Cars Dulllra made for Indy are dogs that fly, I see a cluster f**k again

[Pup]

I'm no great fan of Dallara, but I think I'm going to start voting down any post that spells their name "Dullara", if only because it makes the forum look like its populated by six-year-olds.

edit: (I see someone else feels the same. )