2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

[ringo]

From the rules:

5.2.3 The MGUK must be solely and permanently mechanically linked to the powertrain before the main clutch. This mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the engine crankshaft.
The rotational speed of the MGU-K may not exceed 50,000rpm.
The maximum torque of the MGU-K may not exceed 200Nm. The torque will be referenced to the crankshaft speed and the fixed efficiency correction defined in Article 5.2.2 will be used to monitor the maximum MGU-K torque.
The laminate thickness of the MGU-K may not be less than 0.05mm.

I don't see the word power in there. I see torque.

So, the minimum speed at which the MGU-K can make 120kW/160hp is 5730rpm. Sure the MGU-K can rev to 50,000rpm, but I don't see them maintaining power over a wide range. They tend to have constant torque over a small range, but not constant power.

Torque wont be constant.

SFA = sweet f**k all

The motor speed has bearing on the power output, since the torque is limited.

The MGU-K has to accelerate the car and the engine. There is a lot of inertia there.

To go from 5,000rpm to 10,000 is doubling the speed of the car. It will be measured in seconds, not fractions of a second.

There is a maximum torque, that doesn't really have any bearing on the power output up to that point. Don't worry yourself about inertia, power to the wheels is power to the wheels. It wont be measured in seconds compared to a turbo spooling. I'm sure you see why 80hp was not allowed at the starts in 2013. Imagine the effect 160hp on request would do?

Making boost is obviously the goal - you want to get the engine out of its off boost/lag condition. Making boost early and without lag will make the whole car more responsive and move down the track faster.

We i agree to disagree with you here. Because what you are saying will eventually happen.

In normal turbo design the turbine is matched to the compressor. That is not the case here. The turbine will produce more power than the compressor needs when the engine is above an operating point where a normal turbine would be balanced. The turbine is physically larger than a normal turbo's and will have much more inertia.

So you know what materials the turbine will be made out of already and the inlet and exducer nozzles? I', not saying you are wrong, but i cannot speak to it as i've not seen the cars. I'll just wait till the 28th.

I, again, remind you that the energy transfer from the ES to the MGU-K is limited to 4MJ (in reality it is 2MJ, unless you are storing another 2MJ from the MGU-H) per lap, whereas the ES can transfer unlimited amounts of energy to the MGU-H.

You are contradicting yourself. why are you talking about energy in this context. Power is what you should be looking at. It seems you are saying that unlimited amounts of energy can be sent to the MGUH, so why are you sending more than 4MJ of energy at more than 160hp just to spin a compressor?
Is that what you are implying?

[wuzak]

From the rules:

5.2.3 The MGUK must be solely and permanently mechanically linked to the powertrain before the main clutch. This mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the engine crankshaft.
The rotational speed of the MGU-K may not exceed 50,000rpm.
The maximum torque of the MGU-K may not exceed 200Nm. The torque will be referenced to the crankshaft speed and the fixed efficiency correction defined in Article 5.2.2 will be used to monitor the maximum MGU-K torque.
The laminate thickness of the MGU-K may not be less than 0.05mm.

I don't see the word power in there. I see torque.

So, the minimum speed at which the MGU-K can make 120kW/160hp is 5730rpm. Sure the MGU-K can rev to 50,000rpm, but I don't see them maintaining power over a wide range. They tend to have constant torque over a small range, but not constant power.

Torque wont be constant.

SFA = sweet f**k all

The motor speed has bearing on the power output, since the torque is limited.

The MGU-K has to accelerate the car and the engine. There is a lot of inertia there.

To go from 5,000rpm to 10,000 is doubling the speed of the car. It will be measured in seconds, not fractions of a second.

There is a maximum torque, that doesn't really have any bearing on the power output up to that point. Don't worry yourself about inertia, power to the wheels is power to the wheels. It wont be measured in seconds compared to a turbo spooling. I'm sure you see why 80hp was not allowed at the starts in 2013. Imagine the effect 160hp on request would do?

You are aware of the relationship of power and torque.

At 0rpm an electric motor will have its maximum torque. That may, or may not, remain constant for a while. Power will not be constant in the electric motor. So the question is, what ICE rpm will the maximum MGU-K power be delivered at? I'm quite sure it won't be 5000 ICE rpm, or even 8000. It may be 10,500rpm, or it may be higher.

So when the engine is "off boost" it will be below 10,500rpm - probably well below - and the MGU-K will not be delivering maximum power.

I'm sure the reg that only allowed KERS to be used after 100km/h was on grounds of safety, or maybe a bit of fairness. After all, KERS wasn't mandatory, and there could be a big discrepancy in performance off the line.

Also, in race starts, the cars have their rpms raised to an optimum point (ie power) for acceleration. This will not be the case in the scenario we are talking about.

Inertia is important to the discussion of acceleration. Even if you have the full 160hp, the ICE won't be making much power "off boost", so the acceleration would be lower than desired, and it would take time to get the car up to the speed where the engine would be "on boost".

Making boost is obviously the goal - you want to get the engine out of its off boost/lag condition. Making boost early and without lag will make the whole car more responsive and move down the track faster.

We i agree to disagree with you here. Because what you are saying will eventually happen.

Eventually? Like 1s? 5s?

Acceleration from an "off boost" ICE and the MGU-K will be less than an "on boost" ICE and MGU-K.

In normal turbo design the turbine is matched to the compressor. That is not the case here. The turbine will produce more power than the compressor needs when the engine is above an operating point where a normal turbine would be balanced. The turbine is physically larger than a normal turbo's and will have much more inertia.

So you know what materials the turbine will be made out of already and the inlet and exducer nozzles? I', not saying you are wrong, but i cannot speak to it as i've not seen the cars. I'll just wait till the 28th.

Didn't say anything about materials. I said about the physical size. The turbine will be larger than would normally be the case for the size of compressor used. This is because of the energy recovery system.

I, again, remind you that the energy transfer from the ES to the MGU-K is limited to 4MJ (in reality it is 2MJ, unless you are storing another 2MJ from the MGU-H) per lap, whereas the ES can transfer unlimited amounts of energy to the MGU-H.

You are contradicting yourself. why are you talking about energy in this context. Power is what you should be looking at. It seems you are saying that unlimited amounts of energy can be sent to the MGUH, so why are you sending more than 4MJ of energy at more than 160hp just to spin a compressor?
Is that what you are implying?

Energy determines how long and how often you can use the full MGU-K power.

Thus, when using some of the energy stored to drive the car in straights will reduce the amount that can be used for accelerating the car. There is no time limit to what you can do with the MGU-H.

[ringo]

I don't agree with your understanding of these motors.

here is the 2003 prius motor vs the 2004 motor:

constant power output.

This is usually the case with these kinds of three phase motor. The torque varies with the speed. You tried to flip around the relationship and vary the power; which isn't really helpful.

160hp is a considerable amount of power you know that?
The FIA is using the torque limit to control it. but the above picture makes it clear what these motors are like.

Now what the FIA has done is limit the torque max, but the teams will try to stay at this limit throughout whatever rev range the 200Nm limit and over will cover. However once beyond that point they can commence constant power operation like a normal traction motor.
The motor will have it's torque limited to around 5,700 rpm by simple calculation. After that it can run at full blast 160hp up to 15,000rpm. Now if these engines idle at 4000rpm, will we see 5,700rpm in the race in any corner?

So the idea that the MGUK will be at some lowly horsepower at low rpm is not accurate. It was good you pointed out the torque limit; i didn't know that. However beyond that point the MGUK can give full power, and can be used in off boost situations. Yes MGUH can be used to spool during this time, but maybe it's better to take power off the turbine? who knows?

[ringo]

this may be done in light of the torque limit:



motor power in blue, motor torque in red.
The ecu has to control the voltage and frequency ratio of the motor for various requirements.

[Blanchimont]

There are other limits to consider, voltage and current, as power = voltage x current.

The regulations could limit the posible rev range ("5.12.5 The maximum peak voltage on the car must never exceed 1000V.") and the MGUK itself, if it doesn't allow the voltage and current to be higher than a specific limit.

And in addition the crankshaft and the MGUK do not have to rotate at the same speed ("5.2.3 The MGU-K must be solely and permanently mechanically linked to the powertrain before the main clutch. This mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the engine crankshaft.").

[Tommy Cookers]

the 200 Nm torque limit is a revelation which seems to have been denied to us by the FIA recently
it makes clearer how these things will be used, though ......
constant EM power means falling torque as revs rise, unsuitable for the mandated monotonic EM torque rise with driver demand ?

the 'EM' characteristics shown are dictated by the motor drive choice, a bit like ICE characteristic in a restrictor plate formula
but are those supported by the rules
(falling torque as revs rise is of course helpful when there is wheelspin)

presumably the 200 Nm and 120 kW limits apply to mgu-k generation also ?
though details of the practical aspects underpinning these limits are not apparent

do we now know what type of EM and drive these will be ?

IIRC the KERS mgu-k was geared to about 1.6 times crankshaft speed
so the 2014 mgu-k will be geared to about 2 maybe 2.5 times the 2014 crankshaft speed ?

[ringo]

No it's not unsuitable for the monotomic torque rule.

[rscsr]

There are other limits to consider, voltage and current, as power = voltage x current.

The regulations could limit the posible rev range ("5.12.5 The maximum peak voltage on the car must never exceed 1000V.") and the MGUK itself, if it doesn't allow the voltage and current to be higher than a specific limit.

And in addition the crankshaft and the MGUK do not have to rotate at the same speed ("5.2.3 The MGU-K must be solely and permanently mechanically linked to the powertrain before the main clutch. This mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the engine crankshaft.").

The 1000V is not really a limit for anything. I can remember that on my diploma thesis back in school, we built a electric bike, which used 300V batteries (And Toyota uses about 700V for the LMP1 Hybrid). And at 1000V and about 120kW they would draw 120A. Which is not really much, if you consider that there are a lot of CPUs, which draw about the same Current. (And on the electric bike, we've been using also about the same Current (with just 14mm² cables).

What's the problem with the fixed ratio, between the MGU-K and the engine? The engines will be running between 4000rpm and 13000rpm (up to 15000rpm). So that's a ratio of 3.75. So I would guess, that they will keep the engine power at the max 120kW.

[langwadt]

There are other limits to consider, voltage and current, as power = voltage x current.

The regulations could limit the posible rev range ("5.12.5 The maximum peak voltage on the car must never exceed 1000V.") and the MGUK itself, if it doesn't allow the voltage and current to be higher than a specific limit.

And in addition the crankshaft and the MGUK do not have to rotate at the same speed ("5.2.3 The MGU-K must be solely and permanently mechanically linked to the powertrain before the main clutch. This mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the engine crankshaft.").

The 1000V is not really a limit for anything. I can remember that on my diploma thesis back in school, we built a electric bike, which used 300V batteries (And Toyota uses about 700V for the LMP1 Hybrid). And at 1000V and about 120kW they would draw 120A. Which is not really much, if you consider that there are a lot of CPUs, which draw about the same Current. (And on the electric bike, we've been using also about the same Current (with just 14mm² cables).

What's the problem with the fixed ratio, between the MGU-K and the engine? The engines will be running between 4000rpm and 13000rpm (up to 15000rpm). So that's a ratio of 3.75. So I would guess, that they will keep the engine power at the max 120kW.

finding suitable transistors rated for more than ~1200V gets to be and issue

[Mr.G]

finding suitable transistors rated for more than ~1200V gets to be and issue

They will be looking for IGBT modules... like this - http://www.infineon.com/cms/en/product/ ... 69f04a0380

[FrukostScones]

new Renault Powertrain pics:

http://www.omnicorse.it/foto/popup/3023 ... gy-f1-2014

[Kiril Varbanov]

Renault have been very generous to media outlets, providing us with detailed explanations and diagrams about the secrets of the 2014 power unit.
I have summarized all of it, including large size photos here - http://f1framework.blogspot.com/2014/01 ... ngine.html

[Holm86]

This diagram is interesting.

[Blanchimont]

If the numbers are real, it's interesting to see that at 313km/h the 8th gear is in use and 3rd gear at 96km/h under acceleration out of a turn. And for an overtaking attempt, energy is used both from the MGUH and the battery, which implies that the MGUH alone can not produce the full 120kW allowed for the MGUK.

[techF1LES]

Official RENAULT ENERGY F1®-2014 MEDIA GUIDE
http://www.renaultsportf1.com/IMG/pdf/r ... 014-en.pdf