2014 Engines: Do they sound right?

[rjsa]

Just read again WB's pearl you quoted: it is stating that you hear only half frequency. And he is constantly trying to use your analysys to justify that - in the best ppolitico spin doctor fashion possible: "You see, all is settled, Chris is telling you so, let's not discuss this any longer, lest you raise a valid point"

Well that's a good point, he does indeed say that. And if he did mean mean you only hear half the spectrum, it's 100% wrong.

Just to remember, things weren't settled exacty like that...

[Blackout]

Yeah this thread should be moved

I have a friend who was at Goodwood FOS. He said the F1 guys were saying that he should listen to the Peugeot 208 T16 Pikes Peak car at full chat to get an idea of what the 2014 cars will sound like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3c_-y7VK9M

[WhiteBlue]

Well perhaps xxchrisxx will make a comment. I hope he will.

[xxChrisxx]

I'm currently having a bit of a chat with timbo via PM about the plots. I'd just like to clarify what they are showing before commenting.

[matt21]

Legendary sound:

[Richard]

I've moved the thread to the right forum.

By the way if you click the report post icon then we'll notice something like this a bit sooner.

[Speng]

Anyway if you want to know roughly what a V6 single turbo F1 engine will sound like I recommend checking out the sound of the current Chevy engined Indy cars which are single turbo. The sound is a bit muted . I recently went to an Indy Car race and the engine noise was far more muted than the touring cars running in a support race (a racing Corvette is a sound to behold). I'd been to an IndyCar race in the mod 90s when they ran the twin turbo 2.8s (V-6s i think) and those were far noiser especially when they were running full rich and you'd get the afterburner effect of the fuel burning off in the exhaust. So yeah I reckon the new engines will sound a bit weak especially compared to a V12 blasting 10 feet below you on the bridge crossing the straight at Montreal!

[timbo]

Anyway if you want to know roughly what a V6 single turbo F1 engine will sound like I recommend checking out the sound of the current Chevy engined Indy cars which are single turbo. The sound is a bit muted . I recently went to an Indy Car race and the engine noise was far more muted than the touring cars running in a support race (a racing Corvette is a sound to behold). I'd been to an IndyCar race in the mod 90s when they ran the twin turbo 2.8s (V-6s i think) and those were far noiser especially when they were running full rich and you'd get the afterburner effect of the fuel burning off in the exhaust. So yeah I reckon the new engines will sound a bit weak especially compared to a V12 blasting 10 feet below you on the bridge crossing the straight at Montreal!

AFAIK Indy's were single turbo from the early-mid 70's. But they probably ran much higher boosts and the power output was higher in mid-90's than now.

[dragosmp]

16 * 12000 = 192 000 cylinders/minute = 3.20 c/second (tone 800 Hz)
12 * 14500 = 174 000 cylinders/minute = 2.90 c/second (tone 725 Hz)
10 * 17800 = 178 000 cylinders/minute = 2.97 c/second (tone 742 Hz)

As far as I know the sound frequency can't really be computed like that, because then you'd assume there's only one sinus-wave component to the frequency. If the formulas would be correct all those sounds would be upper-base range and without a subwoofer it would be hard to discern them. Not to mention they'd have to go in the same exhaust pipe, which they don't. The V6 do, so likely you'd have a component to the sound of corresponding low frequency; then you need to consider the period of time the exhaust valve is open as a ratio to the cycle - this means the sound will "exist" for a far shorter period of time than a full cylinder cycle, so higher pitch (say 3-5x higher). Then there's the amplitude of the sound, since the new motors are turbocharged I imagine the bang (at whatever frequency/speed it's at) is louder, so more sound pressure in the exhaust; unless it's dampen a lot by the turbine. The last thing it comes to mind is that at a certain distance, say 100m, as a function of the frequency, lower frequency sounds are more attenuated - a higher pitch sound would travel farther, so spectators (all other things being equal) would perceive lower noise even if the car produces the same dB at a few inches from exhaust.

Just some random thoughts... To me it doesn't seem like any of those sounds have much to do with an F1 or other type or racecar sound, it lacks almost all of the base and some high pitch (as high as may still be), they seem to cut all except around 1-16kHz; sounds like on TV, which isn't quite the same as the full sound. I can't wait hearing them on the track, should be a treat.

[trinidefender]

16 * 12000 = 192 000 cylinders/minute = 3.20 c/second (tone 800 Hz)
12 * 14500 = 174 000 cylinders/minute = 2.90 c/second (tone 725 Hz)
10 * 17800 = 178 000 cylinders/minute = 2.97 c/second (tone 742 Hz)

As far as I know the sound frequency can't really be computed like that, because then you'd assume there's only one sinus-wave component to the frequency. If the formulas would be correct all those sounds would be upper-base range and without a subwoofer it would be hard to discern them. Not to mention they'd have to go in the same exhaust pipe, which they don't. The V6 do, so likely you'd have a component to the sound of corresponding low frequency; then you need to consider the period of time the exhaust valve is open as a ratio to the cycle - this means the sound will "exist" for a far shorter period of time than a full cylinder cycle, so higher pitch (say 3-5x higher). Then there's the amplitude of the sound, since the new motors are turbocharged I imagine the bang (at whatever frequency/speed it's at) is louder, so more sound pressure in the exhaust; unless it's dampen a lot by the turbine. The last thing it comes to mind is that at a certain distance, say 100m, as a function of the frequency, lower frequency sounds are more attenuated - a higher pitch sound would travel farther, so spectators (all other things being equal) would perceive lower noise even if the car produces the same dB at a few inches from exhaust.

Just some random thoughts... To me it doesn't seem like any of those sounds have much to do with an F1 or other type or racecar sound, it lacks almost all of the base and some high pitch (as high as may still be), they seem to cut all except around 1-16kHz; sounds like on TV, which isn't quite the same as the full sound. I can't wait hearing them on the track, should be a treat.

800 hertz is midrange sound. Bass tends to be from about 80Hz going down. Human hearing is generally accepted as 20Hz to 20KHz.

[riff_raff]

You would need to be facing the direction of the exhaust outlets to "hear" a specific frequency. There are numerous frequencies produced by the exhaust system, but the first order frequency would be the most energetic and discernible. An even firing V8 running at 18krpm would produce a 1200Hz first order frequency. But if the exhaust noise was being reflected off of a wall and/or there were other cars in the same location, the actual exhaust tone you hear may be the product of several exhaust frequencies interfering with each other.

[exchaser]

I'll have a first hand recount come Melbourne. Hoping they'll sound pretty good when they're all on track..
Onboards should be interesting too.. And the engine note change with the use of this new device.. And the added kers power... Should be good...

[DannyS]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-W5RzhLyK2E[/youtube]

[Vettel Maggot]

I would like to know people's initial thoughts about this new era of turbo engines from a noise perspective.

Bernie has been quite vocal about how noise is a large part of F1. I thought about this statement for a while and ran through my most vivid memories of F1.

I have been watching the sport since the mid 80s when funnily enough turbo power was also present. I have lost count how many days I have spent either sitting in a grandstand or standing trackside at F1 races. I would class myself as more than just a casual fan. I guess reading these boards for years would indicate that we as a collective are not your 'casual' fans that are probably more crucial to the sport than us 'rusted on' fans.

My most vivid memories from F1 mainly revolved around noise. My earliest memory of F1 was standing by the track with my father in 1987, less than ten years old and in awe. I was hooked. The turbo cars back then belched flame and were truly spectacular in qualifying trim.

My next favourite memory is the 1994 and 1995 Ferraris blasting by, shaking the very earth you stood on. That sound and feeling is still embedded in my head. Just the variety of sounds on offer in those years. The flat sound of the V8 Cosworths, the shriek of the V12 Ferraris and Lamborghinis, that familiar Renault V10 howl. Sitting on the front lawn early in the morning, 5-8kms away from the track and still being able to hear individual downshifts as the drivers went out for the now extinct warm up session.

Moving on a few years and now in my teens I will never forget staying at my relatives home only 1km from the pits in Melbourne. The good old days when work never ceased in the pits. You'd lie in bed with the window open at night and hear the flat monotone sound of a early 2000s V10 idling in the pits as the mechanics worked their magic.

The V10 era was fantastic, I have fond memories of the wail of the BMW Williams flying past and the odd sound of the McLarens one year.

If I lost my vision I would have attended for the noise alone.

The V8s were ok, but now I really miss them already. I understand they are not pushing 100% but so far it's been uninspiring.

I watch F1 for the outrageous speed, sound and racing. It is an escape from the daily grind. Am I alone in thinking they have gone too far and made it too complicated? 100kgs of fuel? ERS KERS whatever? Does F1 really need to be seen as green when they fly how much equipment around the world?

I would like my kids to feel that same excitement I did when you hear and feel the power coming towards you. The feeling in your chest you get when a noisy F1 car blasts past.

Sadly I think that this will now just be a distant memory. I for one think this is a real shame.

[Lycoming]

Am I alone in thinking they have gone too far and made it too complicated? 100kgs of fuel? ERS KERS whatever?

I don't understand. An F1 car has never been a simple piece of machinery, certainly not in recent memory. It's not even the first time they've had fuel quantity limits; they had those in the last turbo era too.

Does F1 really need to be seen as green when they fly how much equipment around the world?

Apparently quite a few people seem to think so as they've gone and done it. Or at least, looked like it. Not that many people are fooled.

I would like my kids to feel that same excitement I did when you hear and feel the power coming towards you. The feeling in your chest you get when a noisy F1 car blasts past.

And why can't they do that with the current generation of engines? Why can't this be nostalgic for them in a few decades, as the 80s were to you? Just curious, have you actually heard the 2014 engines in person? Do you know for sure that the very sound of them doesn't put hairs on your chest?

Honestly sometimes, I feel like people refuse to move on for no good reason. Hell yea the 80's were awesome, but it's not the 80s anymore, and just because they were awesome, that doesn't make the current generation any less awesome.

Everybody looks at the past through rose colored glasses; they see only the good parts and seem to conveniently forget about all the stuff people bitched about back in the day.