CFD - Computational Fluid Dynamics, Motorsport, Formula 1

Here are our CFD links and discussions about aerodynamics, suspension, driver safety and tyres. Please stick to F1 on this forum.
cfditya
cfditya
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Joined: 27 Feb 2007, 17:55
Location: india

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k i will work on it and get it done as soon as poosible!!!!!!!!!!!

miqi23
miqi23
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Joined: 11 Feb 2006, 02:31
Location: United Kingdom

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Before you model them can you please let us know which parts are they and what are you trying to achieve?

AeroGT3
AeroGT3
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Joined: 29 Mar 2006, 23:22

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miqi23 wrote:Before you model them can you please let us know which parts are they and what are you trying to achieve?
Miki, I may have some work to contribute as free time becomes available. What solver are you using, and what kind of hardware are you using? Strictly wall functions with 2 eqn. models or can you handle LES or DES?

miqi23
miqi23
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Joined: 11 Feb 2006, 02:31
Location: United Kingdom

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Hi Aero, thanks for the note mate. I was proposing Aero work since a lot of people find it interesting. Can you tell us what your models are? I dont see why should we use Large Eddy Simulation or Detached Eddy? There is nothing wrong with the standard 2 equation models.

AeroGT3
AeroGT3
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Joined: 29 Mar 2006, 23:22

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miqi23 wrote:Hi Aero, thanks for the note mate. I was proposing Aero work since a lot of people find it interesting. Can you tell us what your models are? I dont see why should we use Large Eddy Simulation or Detached Eddy? There is nothing wrong with the standard 2 equation models.
Well, I haven't actually built the models. I am about to come across a version of Pro-E (legally!), and was just going to come up with some crazy rear wings or something for fun. I was thinking maybe something on the new Aero rules. I figured LES or DES might better resolve the wake if anyone was interested in testing the downwash reduction, but really I'd like the chance to compare results of SST with LES/DES as I just don't have the computing power to do so on my own.

BTW, I use Fluent, which doesn't go higher than MUSCL for solution schemes. Do you know of any packages that have implemented higher order schemes, such as WENO?

I wrote a simple inviscid CFD code to test MUSCL against first order and second order upwind, and the results were vastly different between the three.

The thing is, MUSCL without slope limiters diverges at bow shocks, and with slope limiters reduces accuracy to first order at bow shocks! I'd like to try WENO, but deriving the right hand state vector calculation would be a pain, and Fluent doesn't have 5th order schemes like WENO. Do any other commercial packages have this feature?

Sorry for turning this all Mathy :P

miqi23
miqi23
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Joined: 11 Feb 2006, 02:31
Location: United Kingdom

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To be honest it depends on your application. Your talking academic stuff which a lot of people dont have time for in industry.

I generally go for what works, and to make it specific companies write their own codes tailored to what they want to do.

kilcoo316
kilcoo316
21
Joined: 09 Mar 2005, 16:45
Location: Kilcoo, Ireland

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AeroGT3 wrote:Well, I haven't actually built the models. I am about to come across a version of Pro-E (legally!), and was just going to come up with some crazy rear wings or something for fun. I was thinking maybe something on the new Aero rules. I figured LES or DES might better resolve the wake if anyone was interested in testing the downwash reduction, but really I'd like the chance to compare results of SST with LES/DES as I just don't have the computing power to do so on my own.

I know DES on Fluent requires very specific meshing, as the trigger from the RANS model to LES model is based on mesh y+ value and number of nodes from the wall. Apparently CFX has a better switching mechanism, but I haven't tried either.

To be honest, for us, I think a LES/DES model is well out of reach for us. I certainly don't have time to mesh it up right. I have a paper here that has a brief drag comparison for DES to the S-A model. If anyone wants it PM me.


I have access to 2 clusters with fluent and cfx, but the cfx licenses are very limited. If anyone has jobs to run, and needs large memory, gimme a shout.

miqi23
miqi23
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Joined: 11 Feb 2006, 02:31
Location: United Kingdom

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What would be your limit on cell count?

kilcoo316
kilcoo316
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Joined: 09 Mar 2005, 16:45
Location: Kilcoo, Ireland

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miqi23 wrote:What would be your limit on cell count?
I know jobs of 30 odd million have been run on the cluster before, and that was the older one.


The newer cluster has 8*32GB nodes [with 16 cpus each] and 2*64GB nodes with 16 cpus each.

So, Fluent takes around 1GB per million IIRC [been a couple yrs since I used it though], I could split a job over both 64GB nodes.


Although I dunno how happy the fluent users will be about me nicking licenses :lol:

miqi23
miqi23
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Joined: 11 Feb 2006, 02:31
Location: United Kingdom

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Nice one! Do you have access to FTP or something like that where we can transfer CAD and mesh files....?

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checkered
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Joined: 02 Mar 2007, 14:32

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Hi,

it's an exciting undertaking to model F1 aero. I'm not sure if it's only me, but having read what you're up to (starting with miqi23's idea, I guess), it's not at all clear for me what is being modelled and to what end. I may be oblivious to much what is going on within your exchange (and if you've pm'd each other or something comparable I wouldn't know about it), but in a design process in general it's better to go from whole entities to details and here, I see a lot of details discussed with not many clear references to the bigger picture. If a detail clashes with the entity, the demands of the entity prevail as a rule. Otherwise there's no end to it.

For example, if it is a whole car, it would be best to establish the basics first: the technical regulations are freely available from the FIA website and as far as the shapes of airfoils and bodywork goes, those are pretty simple. As this is, as I gather, mostly about getting familiar with F1 car parameters and different CFD techniques, one would have to accept quite large margins of error and in the first place settle for a proof-of-concept level design. One could/should establish a simple set of conditions, under which the model's validity would be tested (straight, fast corner, slow corner) and a rough set of performance requirements for those conditions. Beyond that it'd quickly involve building physical models etc. If someone then wants to do more detailed work, he/she can pick it up from there.

BMW has boasted that they have the most advanced CFD software and the most powerful workstations etc. at their disposal and are more heavily reliant on virtual modelling than other teams. Their contender, the F1.07, would thus in my humblest of opinions be a prime cadidate for a bit of "reverse CFD engineering". Plus it's sleeker than most designs, making modelling approximations (Where would one get actual meshes? Nowhere) just a bit easier. Of course, a few centimeters here and there can make a world of difference, so I'm not convinced about the merits of making approximations, however close to real measurements. Even more so since the aero is revised for every track on calendar anyway.

Another avenue would be to simulate a team design department and along their ongoing improvement work, they're bound to look into 2008 designs soon enough. So why not model something along 2008 rules already?

If I ventured to do something like this, I'd propably start ground up, quite literally. The tyres are there, obviously, for better and especially for worse aerodynamically speaking. As Bridgestone is now in a monopoly, they could be quite forthcoming about data regarding to levels of grip, conditions under which the tyres remain at optimal operating temperature, the range of camber angles and so on. Understanding the basics of that, again accepting quite a large margin of error, is propably necessary. Then one could deside on a speculative mechanical weight distribution (neutral, biased) and target values for DF distribution's effects in the few representative test conditions that were predetermined earlier i.e. something like 1) minimizing drag in high velocities in a straight line, 2) inducing slight understeer in fast corners, 3) inducing slight oversteer in slow corners by purposefully stalling a part of the rear wing - or whatever qualities one wants to shoot for.

Then it'd be "just" :P a case of working one's way up, starting from the underbody and diffuser, looking into adjoining turning vanes, then propably going on to designing the front wing, nose and possibly barge boards, sidepod air management towards the RIS, then moving on to managing the flow over the sidepods and air box towards the rear wing as efficiently as possible and finally looking into the rear wing itself (as it's pretty much fixed).

OK, so I'm pretty much just thinking aloud here, and thus I'm far from advocating this as any kind of "correct" approach. I'm afraid some of it might actually be simplistic and/or just plain stupid. I just felt that perhaps, whatever your reaction to this is, it has a good chance of clarifying what you want to do and how you want to do it - and what you don't want to do. A sort of a catalyst rather than a straightforward suggestion, that is.

miqi23
miqi23
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Joined: 11 Feb 2006, 02:31
Location: United Kingdom

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That is a lot of work dont you think. It would be fun to do it but it is not a one man job. We would need atleast 3 people to mess around with different things. Some one could volunteer to mesh, some could design the geometries based on the discussions etc.

At this stage initial Aero analysis of different parts can atleast get people working towards what may be a bigger project in the end. As I said, it depends on how many people contribute.

AeroGT3
AeroGT3
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Joined: 29 Mar 2006, 23:22

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miqi23 wrote:To be honest it depends on your application. Your talking academic stuff which a lot of people dont have time for in industry.

I generally go for what works, and to make it specific companies write their own codes tailored to what they want to do.
I understand that, and I'm not asking for anyone to use or implement what I'm talking about. I'm just figured you might know if the CFD codes you know use higher order methods, as in my limited experience higher order approximations require less computing time for the same level of accuracy (very generally speaking) because the grids can be more coarse.

As far as the case files go and such, what solver will you guys be using and are you guys going to be using standard wall functions with coarse grids, or do you want finer grids with enhanced wall functions or no wall functions at all? I don't want to resolve the BL down to y+ < 1 if you all are expecting to use wall functions!

miqi23
miqi23
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Joined: 11 Feb 2006, 02:31
Location: United Kingdom

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Yes, there are CFD codes which use higher schemes, however they are all in house codes. They all have weired names such as MORA etc. To be honest I am not sure which commercial codes use any higher than what we already have. I am happy with what we have and I have never had problems getting good results.

From what I could remember, and I am not sure if it was the Military of Defence (MOD) here in the UK that developed this code capable to run up to the 18th order! Yes thats 18. From what I see all you can run is a flat plate on that!

Give NASA a call and see what they have! Trust me mate they should have something that would blow your minds away.

BreezyRacer
BreezyRacer
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Joined: 04 Nov 2006, 00:31

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Not to get too far off the subject but I understand NASA has been working on virtual, live, CFD. Meaning that you can place an item in a CFD environment and manipulate it in real time like with a real object in a wind tunnel and get live readings.

You can see how this would take aero to a whole new understanding of transient flows, etc. Like many I believe this would revolutionize aero, especially in race cars, if anyone were ever able to get one in a CFD environment like that!