McLaren MP4-29 Mercedes

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iotar__
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Re: McLaren MP4-29 Mercedes

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Diesel wrote:It's not moveable aero because they are the suspension arms. The suspension arms are aero neutral as they should be, they are just a lot beefier. Although it's clear what they are doing, it could be hard to ban these as aero, McLaren could claim they are just reinforced suspension arms. There aren't any rules to prevent over engineering a component.
On the contrary, the way you are describing (I'm not convinced it's a correct interpretation) it's actually very easy to ban it, remember Lotus' ride height gizmo before 2012 season, Whiting explanation was pretty straightforward (I'll try to find full quote later it should fit this one perfectly), it was also part of suspension, aero purpose and benefits were also unquestionable. They can claim whatever they want, just as Lotus did then.

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turbof1
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Re: McLaren MP4-29 Mercedes

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The FIA has been allowing a lot of extreme rule bending stuff lately; I wouldn't be surprised if they not only allowed it, but gave mclaren a pat on the back on the good job they did.

In the Lotus case: this was banned way before testing started. I'm sure mclaren already asked if this is allowed.
#AeroFrodo

i70q7m7ghw
i70q7m7ghw
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McLaren MP4-29 Mercedes

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beelsebob wrote:
Diesel wrote:
beelsebob wrote:I'm pretty confident McLaren are going to be told to take this off, it'd be pretty hard to argue that these parts are structural, and as we can see from the rules "Non-structural parts of suspension members are considered bodywork." And, as we all know, bodywork "Must remain immobile in relation to the sprung part of the car."

I can't see how McLaren will be allowed to race these parts.
They could manufacture a suspension arm of this shape all as one part, at which point it would become structural.

We could all be way off base here, it could just be testing equipment.
Right, I'm sure if this is an aero device then that's what they'd argue, I just don't see it flying with the FIA. They'd simply assert "no, we know very well that you can produce suspension arms that are the same shape minus the paddle on the back, and that they are absolutely strong enough, clearly these are not structural."
As I said before, where is the rule that says you can't over engineer something? I think by the letter of the rules, McLaren might be able to defend this.

Personally I think there's a good chance we might be all left red faced when they tell us it's just testing equipment.

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rssh
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Re: McLaren MP4-29 Mercedes

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In the spirit of rules it can be banned, last year Williams had almost closed the coanda channel and it was perfectly fitting inside the rules since it wasn't fully covered but FIA cleared the rules ahead of the race 1.

RB's hole on the rims were declared as movable aero so one can agrue if the lesser so movable suspension doesn't comply as movable.

.poz
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Re: McLaren MP4-29 Mercedes

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question: a substantial change in flow just ahead the diffuser doesn't cause an abrupt change in rear aero load and so an unstable/difficult to drive car ?

beelsebob
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Re: McLaren MP4-29 Mercedes

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.poz wrote:question: a substantial change in flow just ahead the diffuser doesn't cause an abrupt change in rear aero load and so an unstable/difficult to drive car ?
This would only happen when the suspension compresses substantially down the straights. That said, I really can see this having catastrophic implications at a place like Hungary, with the bumps into turn 1.

SLC
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Re: McLaren MP4-29 Mercedes

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Diesel wrote:
beelsebob wrote:
Diesel wrote:
They could manufacture a suspension arm of this shape all as one part, at which point it would become structural.

We could all be way off base here, it could just be testing equipment.
Right, I'm sure if this is an aero device then that's what they'd argue, I just don't see it flying with the FIA. They'd simply assert "no, we know very well that you can produce suspension arms that are the same shape minus the paddle on the back, and that they are absolutely strong enough, clearly these are not structural."
As I said before, where is the rule that says you can't over engineer something? I think by the letter of the rules, McLaren might be able to defend this.

Personally I think there's a good chance we might be all left red faced when they tell us it's just testing equipment.
Just to agree with your point Diesel, if they manufactured the leg as a single piece of carbon then the whole member *would* be considered structural... and the geometry would not be considered to be bodywork.

There is no rule that says you can't "over engineer" something per se. What you are not allowed are redundant suspension legs, and in engineering terms what this means is effectively each suspension arm can have a maximum of two legs. As long as those two legs conform to the other regs for suspension members, you're fine.

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turbof1
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Re: McLaren MP4-29 Mercedes

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We'll get to know it in a few days what the fia thinks about this. I think it has a fairly good chance to be allowed, but with the fia you never know.

I'm sure though if this reaches Melbourne, the whole field will be lodging official protest.
#AeroFrodo

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SectorOne
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Re: McLaren MP4-29 Mercedes

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Gary saying these things will reduce drag?
At higher speed, because of suspension deflection, a gap will open up between the bottom of the lower blocker and the diffuser, which will reduce drag.
Surely removing them all together would decrease drag since there´s nothing in the way for the airflow?
But what do i know, zero.

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iotar__
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Re: McLaren MP4-29 Mercedes

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SLC wrote:
Just to agree with your point Diesel, if they manufactured the leg as a single piece of carbon then the whole member *would* be considered structural... and the geometry would not be considered to be bodywork.

There is no rule that says you can't "over engineer" something per se. What you are not allowed are redundant suspension legs, and in engineering terms what this means is effectively each suspension arm can have a maximum of two legs. As long as those two legs conform to the other regs for suspension members, you're fine.
No, that's not how it works, there's no such thing as over-engineering as an excuse, structural or not, it's always up to interpretation.

I can't find the quote (Whiting) but the gist of it from memory was that parts of the car had their purpose described in the rules (here McLaren's suspension) anything that goes beyond that ("unnecessarily") for other, aero purposes is illegal, even if it's still part of suspension. In Lotus' case it was hydraulic cylinder, the movement itself was integral part of primary suspension function and device itself was passive (like ducts systems?).

SLC
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Re: McLaren MP4-29 Mercedes

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turbof1 wrote:We'll get to know it in a few days what the fia thinks about this. I think it has a fairly good chance to be allowed, but with the fia you never know.

I'm sure though if this reaches Melbourne, the whole field will be lodging official protest.
This really isn't all that questionable a geometry, it's just pushing existing interpretations to their full extent.

Look back at 2007/2008 and there were plenty of cars running heavily aero-profiled lower suspension arms.

CBeck113
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Re: McLaren MP4-29 Mercedes

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SectorOne wrote:Gary saying these things will reduce drag?
At higher speed, because of suspension deflection, a gap will open up between the bottom of the lower blocker and the diffuser, which will reduce drag.
Surely removing them all together would decrease drag since there´s nothing in the way for the airflow?
But what do i know, zero.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/112341
I think he means reduced drag vs. when there is little downforce on the rear axle, not absolute drag.
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SLC
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Re: McLaren MP4-29 Mercedes

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iotar__ wrote:
SLC wrote:
Just to agree with your point Diesel, if they manufactured the leg as a single piece of carbon then the whole member *would* be considered structural... and the geometry would not be considered to be bodywork.

There is no rule that says you can't "over engineer" something per se. What you are not allowed are redundant suspension legs, and in engineering terms what this means is effectively each suspension arm can have a maximum of two legs. As long as those two legs conform to the other regs for suspension members, you're fine.
No, that's not how it works, there's no such thing as over-engineering as an excuse, structural or not, it's always up to interpretation.

I can't find the quote (Whiting) but the gist of it from memory was that parts of the car had their purpose described in the rules (here McLaren's suspension) anything that goes beyond that ("unnecessarily") for other, aero purposes is illegal, even if it's still part of suspension. In Lotus' case it was hydraulic cylinder, the movement itself was integral part of primary suspension function and device itself was passive (like ducts systems?).
I disagree with you. The fact of whether or not all parts of a suspension arm is structural is not open to interpretation.

The lotus suspension system was deemed illegal because it reacted to the movement of the car/the braking force.

Edit: Though that's not to say the FIA will use their sweeping hand and deem it illegal, who really understands their logical thinking process :lol:
Last edited by SLC on 29 Jan 2014, 19:01, edited 1 time in total.