Patents

[Lex LFA]

What don't f1 teams patent theyre innovative aero bits, wings, and stuff like that. I always wondered that, maybe could it for the competition maybe to improve on a design of another and have the team that first design it re explore that particular part?

[matt21]

What don't f1 teams patent theyre innovative aero bits, wings, and stuff like that. I always wondered that, maybe could it for the competition maybe to improve on a design of another and have the team that first design it re explore that particular part?

If patents in F1 take as long as in the normal industry, it is to long.
Also wings for example are not able to be patented, as they are only evolutions of already existing designs.
You have to have an inovation to get a patent.
So the last thing that comes to my mind which could be patented was the F-duct.

[AnthonyG]

What don't f1 teams patent theyre innovative aero bits, wings, and stuff like that. I always wondered that, maybe could it for the competition maybe to improve on a design of another and have the team that first design it re explore that particular part?

Perhaps it's in the regulations ?

Or perhaps they may violate patent because there is no direct financial gain from using a patent. (As in not selling anything directly to make money, or distribute for free to undermine the direct financial gains from others)


Just thinking out loud...

[rjsa]

I'd also say time.

But just thank god they don't.

[Steven]

Time is probably the most important thing here.
Then again, a patent, on whatever part, is likely only applicable in F1, and only as long as the rules allow it. There would be a heap of useless patents out there, so I would think it's just not worth it.

There has once been a regulation proposal to disallow teams to copy a feature introduced by some team for the entire season, before allowing everyone to use it or banning it entirely. It was obviously rejected by the teams.

[Lycoming]

If a team patents something worth patenting, and they lock in an advantage in the process that nobody else can have, then the FIA will just ban it and thus render the patent useless.

[thisisatest]

patents would only protect you from a supplier or vendor copying you and selling it to the other teams. also, the patent in itself divulges everything about the item's function. once the other teams know why one is doing something, they can figure out a different how.
lots of production techniques in manufacturing are specifically NOT patented, so as to not divulge their secrets. they are able to hold on to their intellectual property for much longer as a result.

[R_Redding]

A good example of not patenting to keep secret how it has been achieved is the Sabre jet engine from Reaction Engines Ltd.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SABRE_%28rocket_engine%29

http://www.reactionengines.co.uk/sabre_howworks.html

Their achievement is incredible,almost defeating the laws of thermodynamics ,but when the original ideas were patented by BAE for the HTOL project it caused unforseen problems. One of them being the UK goverment declaring it Top Secret, which stopped work on the project after BAE gave up any interest.

Bond had to redesign everything to make sure he didnt cross any of the BAE patents (which he himself had written), and them make sure that how it works was kept secret so the UK Gvmt could not declare it Topsecret.

Rob

[riff_raff]

The cost of pursuing an international patent can easily exceed $100K and will require 3-4 years to complete. The technical developments produced by designers of F1 cars usually have no practical value to commercial automotive products. Thus spending huge sums of money to secure patents on concepts that have limited commercial value is not a wise use of financial resources.

[zenji]

This is a good point raised, 11onda are hoarders of patents, there was an interesting one they did on intake ports where the bowl was heavily bulged just before the valve seat, must have worked if they patented it. (2005ish)
8mw teleleaver suspension is an interesting case also, they took liberty of another persons idea and guard it with jealousy.

On topic to aero patents, I reckon langley research would have discovered 95% of every aero idea by 25 years ago.
Those guys are total aerodynamic boffins, they give airfoils for free, and also naca duct specifics for free, uncle sam is a top guy.

[beelsebob]

What don't f1 teams patent theyre innovative aero bits, wings, and stuff like that. I always wondered that, maybe could it for the competition maybe to improve on a design of another and have the team that first design it re explore that particular part?

Teams don't patent parts for a combination of two simple reasons
1) When you patent something, you are required to tell the patent office (and everyone else) what you are doing, meaning that it's not secret any more
2) Patents only protect you from someone else selling the design.

As the team's competitor is not selling it, it's actively disadvantageous to patent something, because all it means is you're telling them what you're doing.

[Richard]

As it happens RBT sells designs to RBR.

Is the limit on selling or exploiting commercial gain? The reason I ask is that patent trolls often go for end users, for example cafés offering wifi under the spurious claim that providing wifi infringes a patent.

[DaveW]

Teams don't patent parts for a combination of two simple reasons
1) When you patent something, you are required to tell the patent office (and everyone else) what you are doing, meaning that it's not secret any more
2) Patents only protect you from someone else selling the design.

As the team's competitor is not selling it, it's actively disadvantageous to patent something, because all it means is you're telling them what you're doing.

You are right...almost. Patents don't offer protection, as such, they are public documents that can be used in a Court of Law to demonstrate Prior Art (I think that is the phrase). Hence patents don't stop a third party using an idea, but they do provide the basis for claiming compensation. The only people who consistently make money from the process are lawyers...

[olefud]

What don't f1 teams patent theyre innovative aero bits, wings, and stuff like that. I always wondered that, maybe could it for the competition maybe to improve on a design of another and have the team that first design it re explore that particular part?

Teams don't patent parts for a combination of two simple reasons
1) When you patent something, you are required to tell the patent office (and everyone else) what you are doing, meaning that it's not secret any more
2) Patents only protect you from someone else selling the design.

As the team's competitor is not selling it, it's actively disadvantageous to patent something, because all it means is you're telling them what you're doing.

Actually, a patent infringement includes making, using and/or selling the patented subject matter. However, this only is in the political entity issuing the patent.

[riff_raff]

You are right...almost. Patents don't offer protection, as such, they are public documents that can be used in a Court of Law to demonstrate Prior Art (I think that is the phrase). Hence patents don't stop a third party using an idea, but they do provide the basis for claiming compensation. The only people who consistently make money from the process are lawyers...

Excellent point. A patent establishes intellectual property rights. Anyone is free to make use of your IP as long as their actions do not result in financial gain. But in order to secure financial compensation through the legal system from a party that you believe has infringed on your IP rights and profited, you must prove your case to a court.

Of course, imagine how financially devastating it would be for an F1 team to lose an IP lawsuit. The financial compensation could easily be in the $10s-of-millions, given the massive budgets of current F1 programs.