A crisis meeting in the cards?

[nacho]

Does Ecclestone really think manufactures want to save fuel as in absolute amount of fuel consumed in the world?

I have to say fuel saving in MotoGP has been a disaster for the racing but I don't think it can get any worse than with what we saw last year in F1.

[ESPImperium]

GP2 Jerez 2012 Lap Times
http://www.gpupdate.net/en/testresults/ ... uary-2012/
http://www.gpupdate.net/en/testresults/ ... mber-2012/

Is GP2 gonna be faster? Possibly, but when they switched to Pirellis from Bridgestones they lost 3 seconds a lap. Remember, those cars are up to 12 seconds slower at many tracks. I think the fact that the cars are in a very crude format aerodynamically, also they have about 50Kg to loose in weight as many are on or above the weight limit by 10-15Kg to the figures i have heard with only one or two under it by a kilo or two. That means the cars will gain that half second, and the aid ballast placement will also bring a second to 1.4 seconds a lap. Also, the engines aint running at full bore yet, they won't until AUS, and that could well be a grenade party, or lights out party.

Personally, i think theres about another 5 seconds that can be found in lap time, just on focus on Aero, Weight and Engine. I think the cars could do a 1:18.500 in a year or two in this formula. People who are whining should just stop, the formula at the moment has just undergone major surgery, last surgery like this was 1991, it has gone to the dentist and doctor to get lots of minor ailments sorted every year since, but the sport has just undergone a quadruple heart bypass and a double hip and knee replacement. It will need time to get to its feet and become reliable again as a human would. People who think the sport should be running at the speed of Usain Bolt should look at another sport, the sport is going at its own pace right now, it will take a major period of recovery for the speed to get back to 2013 levels. However one thing is for sure, it will be back to the doctor again in 2015 for some minor ailments to get treated and every year for the next decade or so.

At the moment im prepared to visit the F1 Hospital a few times this year, im looking forward to the next two to three years tho as i think F1 will be closer than the last two to three years. Im prepared to fall in love again with the sport.

[ScottB]

The noise comments are a nonsense, the cars will still be incredibly loud in person I'm sure, and the sound on TV was always neutered and modified compared to actually being there, so I'm sure the broadcasters will do what they do with the sound once more, it's hardly going to be silent.

And please, giving Bernie veto power over rules? So by now we'd have medals, sprinklers and scalertix split chicanes in place! He's a dottering old man, stuck in his ways trying to deflect attention from his court case. The manufacturers wanted the new engine regs and it's already attracted a new one to the sport. It's time for Bernie to keep his mouth shut, not least because it's no longer his job.

Disagree with you with your anti Bernie banter. Bear in mind that it is Bernie Ecclestone, whether you like it or not that has for the past 30 years been putting F1 onto the world stage of global, mega advertising business. You fail to give the man credit or respect that is very much due.

He developed F1 into what it is and it is easy to take it for granted. If he was clueless and as you suggest was ignorant of the nature of his business, then the power brokers of F1 advertising and promotional business would not waste a minute to keep him.

His previous successes aren't a carte blanche for his recent actions, particularly this. If his job is to promote F1, how exactly does this help? His opposition to these rules when they were up for discussion was one thing, but the V8s aren't coming back, he can think what he likes about that, but this rant of his achieves nothing for the sport. Is this going to convince sponsors trying to make a decision? If the answer is no, then he isn't doing his job, not that it really is his job anymore anyway.

And if you compare revenues of F1 to similarly watched sports like English football or NFL, then I'd argue he hasn't achieved as much as you suggest, other than making himself incredibly wealthy of course. But that's a debate for another thread.

[AnthonyG]

The noise comments are a nonsense, the cars will still be incredibly loud in person I'm sure, and the sound on TV was always neutered and modified compared to actually being there, so I'm sure the broadcasters will do what they do with the sound once more, it's hardly going to be silent.

And please, giving Bernie veto power over rules? So by now we'd have medals, sprinklers and scalertix split chicanes in place! He's a dottering old man, stuck in his ways trying to deflect attention from his court case. The manufacturers wanted the new engine regs and it's already attracted a new one to the sport. It's time for Bernie to keep his mouth shut, not least because it's no longer his job.

Disagree with you with your anti Bernie banter. Bear in mind that it is Bernie Ecclestone, whether you like it or not that has for the past 30 years been putting F1 onto the world stage of global, mega advertising business. You fail to give the man credit or respect that is very much due.

He developed F1 into what it is and it is easy to take it for granted. If he was clueless and as you suggest was ignorant of the nature of his business, then the power brokers of F1 advertising and promotional business would not waste a minute to keep him.

His previous successes aren't a carte blanche for his recent actions, particularly this. If his job is to promote F1, how exactly does this help? His opposition to these rules when they were up for discussion was one thing, but the V8s aren't coming back, he can think what he likes about that, but this rant of his achieves nothing for the sport. Is this going to convince sponsors trying to make a decision? If the answer is no, then he isn't doing his job, not that it really is his job anymore anyway.

And if you compare revenues of F1 to similarly watched sports like English football or NFL, then I'd argue he hasn't achieved as much as you suggest, other than making himself incredibly wealthy of course. But that's a debate for another thread.

That's where you're wrong, he holds certain rights of F1, he doesn't really have a job, it's his product and he does as he pleases with it.

[ScottB]

Disagree with you with your anti Bernie banter. Bear in mind that it is Bernie Ecclestone, whether you like it or not that has for the past 30 years been putting F1 onto the world stage of global, mega advertising business. You fail to give the man credit or respect that is very much due.

He developed F1 into what it is and it is easy to take it for granted. If he was clueless and as you suggest was ignorant of the nature of his business, then the power brokers of F1 advertising and promotional business would not waste a minute to keep him.

His previous successes aren't a carte blanche for his recent actions, particularly this. If his job is to promote F1, how exactly does this help? His opposition to these rules when they were up for discussion was one thing, but the V8s aren't coming back, he can think what he likes about that, but this rant of his achieves nothing for the sport. Is this going to convince sponsors trying to make a decision? If the answer is no, then he isn't doing his job, not that it really is his job anymore anyway.

And if you compare revenues of F1 to similarly watched sports like English football or NFL, then I'd argue he hasn't achieved as much as you suggest, other than making himself incredibly wealthy of course. But that's a debate for another thread.

That's where you're wrong, he holds certain rights of F1, he doesn't really have a job, it's his product and he does as he pleases with it.

And if he wants his rights to continue being worth enough to keep him in luxury and well paid lawyers, talking the sport up rather than complaining about the current technical regulations would be a start.

[SectorOne]

Disagree with you with your anti Bernie banter. Bear in mind that it is Bernie Ecclestone, whether you like it or not that has for the past 30 years been putting F1 onto the world stage of global, mega advertising business. You fail to give the man credit or respect that is very much due.

The bigger question is whether that was an inevitability rather then the magic hands of Bernie.
Does Soccer, NFL, NBA, NASCAR, Cricket, Olympics, World Cup also have a guy like Bernie that have revolutionized the sport commercially and taken half the cake?

I see it as a man spotting an opportunity nobody else saw and launched a coup together with an ex-lawyer and what we see today is the product of that.

[321apex]

The bigger question is whether that was an inevitability rather then the magic hands of Bernie.
Does Soccer, NFL, NBA, NASCAR, Cricket, Olympics, World Cup also have a guy like Bernie that have revolutionized the sport commercially and taken half the cake?

Before you mention "inevitability" just look at what happened to CART as an example of a much lower level, yet still technical motorsport which could not evolve and last in a relatively monetarily rich environment of the USA. Where CART made many bad decisions as a sand box committee of team owners, Bernie on behalf of F1 in just about dictatorial way has been developing the business model while making it work globally.

Highly technical disciplines such as F1 are too dissimilar to soccer or any other "human flesh" sports to compare. Soccer, basketball or any other team sport players need shoes and the field to become heroes. While Vettels and Alonsos need billions spent each year to build and fly around expensive hardware, build and maintain expensive race tracks located around the globe. It is a whole lot different ball of wax to deal with.

FIFA organizes the world cup once every 4 years and all football teams gather in one place to play tournaments. F1 flies around the globe each year with complex business and technical logistics to boot.

In theory, no one is irreplaceable, but Bernie has done a stellar job taking very high a unique and fragile sport. He made money along the way? Sure. He treated it as his own business and devoted his life to it. When he is gone, his absence will be noticed.

[CHT]

GP2 Jerez 2012 Lap Times
http://www.gpupdate.net/en/testresults/ ... uary-2012/
http://www.gpupdate.net/en/testresults/ ... mber-2012/

Is GP2 gonna be faster? Possibly, but when they switched to Pirellis from Bridgestones they lost 3 seconds a lap. Remember, those cars are up to 12 seconds slower at many tracks. I think the fact that the cars are in a very crude format aerodynamically, also they have about 50Kg to loose in weight as many are on or above the weight limit by 10-15Kg to the figures i have heard with only one or two under it by a kilo or two. That means the cars will gain that half second, and the aid ballast placement will also bring a second to 1.4 seconds a lap. Also, the engines aint running at full bore yet, they won't until AUS, and that could well be a grenade party, or lights out party.

Personally, i think theres about another 5 seconds that can be found in lap time, just on focus on Aero, Weight and Engine. I think the cars could do a 1:18.500 in a year or two in this formula. People who are whining should just stop, the formula at the moment has just undergone major surgery, last surgery like this was 1991, it has gone to the dentist and doctor to get lots of minor ailments sorted every year since, but the sport has just undergone a quadruple heart bypass and a double hip and knee replacement. It will need time to get to its feet and become reliable again as a human would. People who think the sport should be running at the speed of Usain Bolt should look at another sport, the sport is going at its own pace right now, it will take a major period of recovery for the speed to get back to 2013 levels. However one thing is for sure, it will be back to the doctor again in 2015 for some minor ailments to get treated and every year for the next decade or so.

At the moment im prepared to visit the F1 Hospital a few times this year, im looking forward to the next two to three years tho as i think F1 will be closer than the last two to three years. Im prepared to fall in love again with the sport.

No doubt the engine will be developed over time. But this could come at the expense of falling viewership and rising cost, which could force some team into serious deficit this year.

[SectorOne]

Before you mention "inevitability" just look at what happened to CART as an example of a much lower level, yet still technical motorsport which could not evolve and last in a relatively monetarily rich environment of the USA. Where CART made many bad decisions as a sand box committee of team owners, Bernie on behalf of F1 in just about dictatorial way has been developing the business model while making it work globally.

And how healthy is Formula 1 today? (or has ever been for that matter)
When teams start discussing a breakaway series i think one has to look very closely at the "success" of Formula 1 as a whole.

And what has Bernie done recently? Did he stop the "awful" V6´s? what has he done for the last 10 years in Formula One other then visiting new places on earth and charging top dollar for it?

Everyone can see that Bernie made what the sport is today. But again the question is if that´s not an inevitability rather then one tiny little man with a vision that nobody else could have done.

Was Bernie around when Chapman starting selling advertisement spots on his car? Putting the first seeds into the ground of the huge advertisement pillar we see today.

[321apex]

And how healthy is Formula 1 today? (or has ever been for that matter)
When teams start discussing a breakaway series i think one has to look very closely at the "success" of Formula 1 as a whole.

And what has Bernie done recently? Did he stop the "awful" V6´s? what has he done for the last 10 years in Formula One other then visiting new places on earth and charging top dollar for it?

Everyone can see that Bernie made what the sport is today. But again the question is if that´s not an inevitability rather then one tiny little man with a vision that nobody else could have done.

Was Bernie around when Chapman starting selling advertisement spots on his car? Putting the first seeds into the ground of the huge advertisement pillar we see today.

1. How healthy you ask? Well, we will soon find out the collateral damage stemming from 2014 powertrain revolution. On the business side, Bernie was/is responsible for the MONEY side and that has been growing for 30 years he's been in charge in spite of economic turmoils along the way, and especially since 2009.

2. "Breakaway story" was just a political rant invented by Ferrari and few others who have since left F1 and believed by some naive F1 fans.

3. Bernie has had little influence in writing the rules, since FIA is separate from the rights holding he is responsible for. It is clear that the teams have always wanted to diminish the contribution of hero drivers by offsetting it with technology content. To put it in other words, the teams want a monkey driving the car for piddly pay instead of bazillions.

4. Bernie has unique personality and business savvy and he largely gets the credit for guiding the money side of F1 into a world wide business success.

5. I think Bernie was around in Chapman days. Please remember that he was the owner of Brabham F1 team when Nelson Piquet had his days of glory.

[SectorOne]

1. How healthy you ask? Well, we will soon find out the collateral damage stemming from 2014 powertrain revolution. On the business side, Bernie was/is responsible for the MONEY side and that has been growing for 30 years he's been in charge in spite of economic turmoils along the way, and especially since 2009.

We don´t even need to look at 2014 to see what a disaster it is.

2. "Breakaway story" was just a political rant invented by Ferrari and few others who have since left F1 and believed by some naive F1 fans.

No it wasn´t. It was a legitimate threat that the FIA took seriously. Twice if i´m not mistaken.

3. Bernie has had little influence in writing the rules, since FIA is separate from the rights holding he is responsible for. It is clear that the teams have always wanted to diminish the contribution of hero drivers by offsetting it with technology content. To put it in other words, the teams want a monkey driving the car for piddly pay instead of bazillions.

And this bit is aimed at what part of my post?

4. Bernie has unique personality and business savvy and he largely gets the credit for guiding the money side of F1 into a world wide business success.

Sure, there´s nobody denying that. But again the question is if that was inevitable or not.
what we do know is Bernie made billions from his coup.

Is it ok to kill one person if you save ten? That really seems to be the logic behind the Bernie fist pumping.
When Bernie is gone people will realize that actually, the sport can run just fine (possibly even better) without a dictator.

5. I think Bernie was around in Chapman days. Please remember that he was the owner of Brabham F1 team when Nelson Piquet had his days of glory.

Which was several years after Chapman had started putting advertisement on the cars. Years before Bernie was a manager to Jochen Rindt.

[321apex]

And what has Bernie done recently? Did he stop the "awful" V6´s?

This is what you said about Bernie's influence on 2014 rules.

- 2014 isn't a disaster... yet
- "break away" story was for the naive, too bad you also swallowed that bait, while you (or my for that matter) have no idea what FIA does or does not take seriously; you are dwelling into the subject of money and politics and as such you must learn to read between the lines
- you are entitled to have a subjective dislike towards anyone, even Bernie, however while making himself rich, he put fragile technical sport of F1 on the global map of sports advertising, which was no easy feat
- No one knows how well, will F1 run when Bernie is gone from the post, I hope that YOU are CORRECT, since largely he already built "the castle" which should only be properly maintained, but I am afraid due to the dynamics of world events, economics and politics it may go the other way

[ScottB]

Given that most of the grid are near bankrupt, and much of the money that the sport generates heads towards CVC and Bernie, while F1 has become a successful money making machine, it has not benefited the sport in any way comparable to other global sports.

In any case, after one test, the 2014 rules can't be judged a failure, and to say so is pretty ludicrous. If we get a couple Grand Prix in, and nobody is finishing races, then is the time for a 'crisis meeting,' but given that man + dog was expecting the first test to be just like this, in fact probably worse, Mercedes were quite happily churning round and running up race distances. The current noise is Bernie being Bernie, because he didn't get his way, and Red Bull, who are doing the same as they did with the tyres last year, ramping up what pressure they can to try and improve their own chances.

I'm more excited for this season than any one in years, and I'm sure many other people are the same. F1 should be about change and pushing the envelope, sticking what was essentially a 10 year old + engine formula had to come to an end and will bring in more manufacturers.

[Pup]

No it wasn´t. It was a legitimate threat that the FIA took seriously. Twice if i´m not mistaken.

More importantly, CVC took it very seriously.

[kalinka]

Where CART made many bad decisions as a sand box committee of team owners, Bernie on behalf of F1 in just about dictatorial way has been developing the business model while making it work globally.

I know CART and the new IZOD IndyCar are not the same, but last I was following both F1 and IndyCar closely, and I must admit that IndyCar produced far more interesting and close racing than F1. I follow F1 for more than 25 years now, but I think it's again in danger, because if you look at them closely, almost every other series is better managed now. I will always prefer F1, because of the technical side, but other series are already much more interesting to watch for an average fan IMO. F1 can live from its past fame for a few more years, but if it can't pick up the pace, it will die slowly or even suddenly. I would say Bernies actions are just one of the causes - probably one of the major ones.