Legality of McLaren's "Butterfly" suspension

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Rikhart
Rikhart
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Re: Legality of McLaren's "Butterfly" suspension

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acosmichippo wrote:
WilliamsF1 wrote:Private rule clarification with CW/FIA should be banned, if you want to risk a design, build it then get it verified at official test or GP weekend.
What is your reasoning for this?
Maybe that they keep giving green light for several things that later get banned? Its extremely inconsistent.

mclaren_mircea
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Re: Legality of McLaren's "Butterfly" suspension

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http://www.omnicorse.it/magazine/34306/ ... la-mclaren
Red Bull had protested the shutter McLaren

The technicians of the FIA ​​felt perettamente legal solution of the MP4-29
E' già guerra dei nervi e delle carte bollate. C'è chi ritiene che certi musi con la proboscide siano pericolosi per come sono stati interpretati i regolamenti e chi, invece, si preoccupa delle nuove soluzioni tecniche. La sospensione posteriore a "tapparella" della McLaren MP4-29 sta suscitando un grosso interesse fra i tecnici.

La Red Bull Racing, addirittura, aveva inviato una richiesta di chiarimento regolamentare alla FIA sostenendo che la soluzione potesse non essere in linaea con le norme 2014: i tecnici della Federazione Internazionale, invece, hanno dichiarato perfettamente conforme la geniale soluzione della MP4-29 che, almeno per il momento, sembra dare ottimi ragguagli in pista.

La sospensione a "tapparella" sarà da verificare anche su un'altra pista che non sia Jerez dove non si raggiungono alte velocità massime: l'idea, infatti, è in antitesi con l'esigenza di avere delle macchine molto efficienti, visto che la soluzione di Woking dovrebbe dare molto carico aerodinamico, ma dovrebbe anche costare parecchio in termini di resistenza all'avanzamento.


http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/formel-1-606153.html
The new McLaren MP4-29 has the designers of the competition concerned. Everyone looked at the photos of the new rear axle. It is now clear: it is absolutely legal. But it is also a trump card, as it appears at first sight?
To make it short: The new McLaren MP4 -29 is legal. The engineers in Woking were just clever. While all the world is still bothered because the new nose rule was reduced to absurdity, McLaren has tricked at the other end of the car.

As the regulations actually looked before the ban on so-called "Beam Wing." This used to be the lower element of the rear wing. He has provided for output, helped the diffuser during suctioning the air and absorbed the flow at the diffuser at the upper rear wing element. A very important part so.

Four wings instead of a "beam wing"
McLaren now has four of these "beam wings" in the rear. You stagger to the right and left of the crash structure underneath the rear wing. This is possible because McLaren misused the rear wishbone rear axle. They are disguised as a wing profile. For three rules apply. The width must not exceed the height of more than 3.5 times. A maximum of 10 inches are allowed. And the profile of the wishbone has to be symmetrical as viewed from the side.

McLaren has met all three requirements. The maximum width is achieved, because the surface extends in a wave shape and is bent back like a Flügelflap upwards. To ensure symmetry, also a rump must go down. From the side it looks like a lying T. The concept was approved by the rule keepers already last summer.

Significantly more air resistance
At first glance, the troupe technical director Tim Goss has since landed a major coup. The four wing elements give significant output. And the lower level helps the diffuser during suctioning. Nevertheless, the designers of the competition are not one hundred percent convinced.

"The wing is based on quite a lot of air resistance, especially the part that bends downward," says Red Bull chief technical officer Adrian Newey. While this could lead lap time, but increase fuel consumption. Since McLaren would shoot an own goal. , Mercedes team boss Paddy Lowe throws: "McLaren has determined thought something you will have found a way that it works without major disadvantages for them.."

McLaren-wishbone must be heavier
The trick requires an unusual geometry of the rear axle. The rear wishbone does not run at a 90 degree angle to the center line of the car, but spreads far back, so that the control arm extends under the rear wing. He hinged to the rear of the crash structure. The tie rod is located where normally the upper wishbone.

Williams technical director Pat Symonds sees small loss in torsional stiffness and kinematics, which holds but negligible: "The McLaren may have compensated by more mass I suppose that the wishbones are heavier than normal.." The trick is easy to copy? Symonds says yes: "It just is not as perfect as hinbekommen McLaren, because those have designed the whole concept of the car on it."


Please stop this thread. The FIA gave the aproval for the concept already last year. It's legal. The other teams can protest it, it's their business, but they will receive only a clarification to their request. Game over.

Hobbs04
Hobbs04
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Re: Legality of McLaren's "Butterfly" suspension

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So clarify this- why are the teams not exploiting this in the front suspension? I'm sure they could find nifty ways to eek out another kilo of df.

Just a thought.

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Holm86
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Re: Legality of McLaren's "Butterfly" suspension

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Hobbs04 wrote:So clarify this- why are the teams not exploiting this in the front suspension? I'm sure they could find nifty ways to eek out another kilo of df.

Just a thought.
Because the design in it self is not very efficient. If used on the front suspension it would be to large a drag penalty. The reason it works on the rear suspension is that it creates a low pressure zone behind it which helps extract air from the diffuser. This increases the diffusers efficiency.

And besides this there is already enough front downforce. Its the rear that needs downforce this year.

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FW17
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Re: Legality of McLaren's "Butterfly" suspension

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As per the latest interpretation of CW, last years beam wing is banned but can be renamed as a track rod.

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FW17
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Re: Legality of McLaren's "Butterfly" suspension

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Rikhart wrote:
acosmichippo wrote:
WilliamsF1 wrote:Private rule clarification with CW/FIA should be banned, if you want to risk a design, build it then get it verified at official test or GP weekend.
What is your reasoning for this?
Maybe that they keep giving green light for several things that later get banned? Its extremely inconsistent.
When something in a competitive world is clarified, it is to be officially recorded and same clarification provided to all involved. I thought after the Merc - Pirelli test debacle things would have changed, but FIA's F1 rule and regulations are just as absurd as their election process.

NormalChris
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Re: Legality of McLaren's "Butterfly" suspension

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So if full aerodynamic exploitation of the suspension is now considered fair play with this interpretation of the rules, what is to stop a team from creating large* non symmetrical aerofoils out of the arms? I'm not totally clear on the allowable dimensions of the different suspension components but it seems one could create a decent sized wing within this area. I know that this is already exploited to some extent but it seems that teams have always taken a conservative approach to try to follow the spirit of the rules.
Also if I were a competing team I would make a set of the most absurdly shaped structural wishbones possible with their only intent being a legality inquisition by another team; thus requiring a clarification and a better chance of all radical designs being outlawed. Then we wouldn't need to invest and mac takes a hit.
At first this design swayed towards illegal in my mind but after considering the opinions of its proponents I do think it's legal. It's funny how bias and team preference can influence ones stance on the legality of different innovations.

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iotar__
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Re: Legality of McLaren's "Butterfly" suspension

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Just_a_fan wrote:
wuzak wrote: No way it complies with the "spirit of the law", though that hasn't been a factor for many years.
There never has been a "spirit of the law". The rules are applied as written so if the suspension complies with the written rules for that part of the car then it's legal. The same with the flexing wings - the rules say "don't deflect when load X applied". They didn't deflect so they were legal. The fact that everyone could see they deflected on track didn't make them illegal it just made the rules/rule makers look silly.

What will happen is that the FIA / teams will reword this section of the rules requiring suspension arms that are "traditional" in shape i.e. like they were last year.
Good comparison, CW was happy with RB's front wings too. As long as they were passing deflection tests (McLaren's equivalent of keeping within regulated dimensions) they were perfectly legal and that's all they had to worry about.

So would anyone consider mid-season clarification banning McLaren solution similar and fair way of dealing by FIA with unwanted effects?

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Legality of McLaren's "Butterfly" suspension

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NormalChris wrote:So if full aerodynamic exploitation of the suspension is now considered fair play with this interpretation of the rules, what is to stop a team from creating large* non symmetrical aerofoils out of the arms? I'm not totally clear on the allowable dimensions of the different suspension components but it seems one could create a decent sized wing within this area. I know that this is already exploited to some extent but it seems that teams have always taken a conservative approach to try to follow the spirit of the rules.
Also if I were a competing team I would make a set of the most absurdly shaped structural wishbones possible with their only intent being a legality inquisition by another team; thus requiring a clarification and a better chance of all radical designs being outlawed. Then we wouldn't need to invest and mac takes a hit.
At first this design swayed towards illegal in my mind but after considering the opinions of its proponents I do think it's legal. It's funny how bias and team preference can influence ones stance on the legality of different innovations.
They will have to make new rules for 2014.. maybe limiting the maximum perpendicular thickness of the wishbones to something like 50mm or the like. Or even mandating a section.
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hollowBallistix
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Re: Legality of McLaren's "Butterfly" suspension

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NormalChris wrote:So if full aerodynamic exploitation of the suspension is now considered fair play with this interpretation of the rules, what is to stop a team from creating large* non symmetrical aerofoils out of the arms? I'm not totally clear on the allowable dimensions of the different suspension components but it seems one could create a decent sized wing within this area. I know that this is already exploited to some extent but it seems that teams have always taken a conservative approach to try to follow the spirit of the rules.
Also if I were a competing team I would make a set of the most absurdly shaped structural wishbones possible with their only intent being a legality inquisition by another team; thus requiring a clarification and a better chance of all radical designs being outlawed. Then we wouldn't need to invest and mac takes a hit.
At first this design swayed towards illegal in my mind but after considering the opinions of its proponents I do think it's legal. It's funny how bias and team preference can influence ones stance on the legality of different innovations.
If you read the above article you would have seen this...

"The width must not exceed the height of more than 3.5 times. A maximum of 10 inches are allowed. And the profile of the wishbone has to be symmetrical as viewed from the side."

McLaren's approach is within the rules, it's just an area they chose to develop where others have overlooked it... or maybe others haven't revealed their Aero packages yet & are less concerned with this concept, every manufacturer / designer had the opportunity to design components within those parameters, if they haven't then it's their fault, so less of the "spirit of the rules" nonsense,

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strad
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Re: Legality of McLaren's "Butterfly" suspension

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No way it complies with the "spirit of the law",
Hillarious...I guess it's just if the shoe pinches. When I have complained about this sort of arbitrage I've been told that the party was just being creative or ferreting out clever soultions.
I was told that there is no spirit of the rules just the black and white and that if you are clever enough to cheat within the rules that is not just simply ok but actually brilliant. Now which is it? Does it change with who is on the shiort end of the stick?
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autogyro
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Re: Legality of McLaren's "Butterfly" suspension

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strad wrote:
No way it complies with the "spirit of the law",
Hillarious...I guess it's just if the shoe pinches. When I have complained about this sort of arbitrage I've been told that the party was just being creative or ferreting out clever soultions.
I was told that there is no spirit of the rules just the black and white and that if you are clever enough to cheat within the rules that is not just simply ok but actually brilliant. Now which is it? Does it change with who is on the shiort end of the stick?
Short end of the stick, tell me about it.

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adrianjordan
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Re: McLaren MP4-29 Mercedes

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Mod - The following 12 posts have been moved from the MP4-29 thread
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Lazy wrote:
ACJJ619 wrote:If such a system is apparently so complex for other teams to copy - won't simply removing it for tracks like Monza not be as simple as some are making out?

Granted, it doesn't require physically moving the location of suspension arms like installing the system does, but it affects a lot of things surely?
They would just fit aero neutral arms if they feel it's necessary, like the launch version.
As has been said multiple times, no they won't. Doing so would be fuel to the fire for any teams wishing to get them outlawed.
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trinidefender
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Re: McLaren MP4-29 Mercedes

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adrianjordan wrote:
Lazy wrote:
ACJJ619 wrote:If such a system is apparently so complex for other teams to copy - won't simply removing it for tracks like Monza not be as simple as some are making out?

Granted, it doesn't require physically moving the location of suspension arms like installing the system does, but it affects a lot of things surely?
They would just fit aero neutral arms if they feel it's necessary, like the launch version.
As has been said multiple times, no they won't. Doing so would be fuel to the fire for any teams wishing to get them outlawed.
Correction, as YOU have said multiple times. It is very rare for the FIA to outlaw things under the "spirit of the regulations" rule or whatever it is. Once the part is symmetrical and obeys the actual written regulations for dimensions then most likely the FIA will just change the rule for next season to outlaw it then. The fact that "conventional" suspension components were used in the launch car means that obviously they can do it but they chose to build the suspension like this.

If they were so worried that changing it back on low downforce circuits would fuel the outlaw fire then they would have just waited to launch it at Jerez itself. The fact that they launched it early with normal suspension means that they won't have a problem switching back as far as regulations are comcerned

Pup
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Re: McLaren MP4-29 Mercedes

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adrianjordan wrote:As has been said multiple times, no they won't. Doing so would be fuel to the fire for any teams wishing to get them outlawed.
Lots of things get said multiple times around here. The FIA is well aware of the purpose of McLaren's design. If they weren't O.K. with that, they'd have prohibited it already.