2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
miguelalvesreis
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W05

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beelsebob wrote:
henra wrote:
hollus wrote: Let's do the following calculation/estimation: 30 years ago with 1,5l displacement, at 5bar turbo pressure and 200kg/h fuel you could achieve peak powers of 1400hp. With half the fuel flow allowed in 2014 the ICE alone should make 700hp?
This conclusion would only be valid if the old Turbo cars actually had a technical restriction of the fuel flow of exactly 200kg/h.
I'm not aware of such a device back then. I don't know how he comes to this conclusion.
Therefore deriving that with half the fuel flow you can achieve half the HP is moot, since the actual max fuel flow of the 80's Turbo cars is not known exactly. Could have been easily 250kg/h or more especially in Quali.
For me the first question/answer tells much more than the second, as an efficiency target of 40% and 100kg/h fuel translates to

100kg*42MJ/kg/3600s * 40% = 467kW or 634hp

as an upper limit,
=D>
That's really a much more correct approach to come to a realistic figure.
Except that it appears that the energy density of the fuel is not correct.
Seems pretty well to me. Common value for energy density or energetic potential for F1 Fuel. AFAIK F1 fuel is pretty similar to road cars gasoline. One of the values commonly tweaked was the density or specific weight. Aren´t you referring to that one? That one is regulated. Don´t know the exact figures but should be around 700kg/m3 or so.

If I'm mistaken then of how much of an error is on that formulae. Because any x% change on that value, keeping the other variables stable will enforce a x% change in the final value!

kalinka
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W05

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miguelalvesreis wrote:100kg*42MJ/kg/3600s * 40% = 467kW or 634hp
Why 42MJ and not 46MJ ?

Assuming the 46MJ is the correct number, if you increase the efficiency by just 1%, you are already at 670HP. So small errors could lead to quite different results here.
Just asking, I'm not an expert in any way...

shady
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Blanchimont wrote:
bonjon1979 wrote:You guys seen this?
For me the first question/answer tells much more than the second, as an efficiency target of 40% and 100kg/h fuel translates to

100kg*42MJ/kg/3600s * 40% = 467kW or 634hp

as an upper limit, assumed they do not use fuel with an energy content of 46MJ/kg or more. The second question sounds like a leading question to me. I wouldn't take this as a sign that Mercedes achieves 700hp from the ICE without the MGUH and MGUK.

We could skew your eq up or down. The engine manufacturers are aiming for 40% which is to say that they could have exceeded (or not...) that thermal efficiency, the homologation happens at the end of feb, but they need to hedge against other teams (particularly honda who is free to do as they please for a year, still i _think_ the PU are only 5% locked for next season) so pushing that as far as possible seems to be of central focus. the assumption that pump fuel and race fuel offer the same power may not bee 100% accurate. even between producers (Shell/Exxon) the power can be +/- 4MJ.. (pump fuel on the high side _could_ bring us up to 46MJ).. all to say that 700hp isnt too far out of the realm of maximum output
Last edited by shady on 07 Feb 2014, 15:29, edited 1 time in total.

TinoBoost
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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321apex wrote:
Tommy Cookers wrote:.... the controlled turbo/recovery turbine having anyway largely eliminated pumping losses
That makes no sense!
Besides, you seem to cut and paste loosely gathered bits of information that doesn't present your argument very well. Can you give it another try?

When you move gases in and out of a cylinder, you have to deal with pumping losses - regardless of whether it's TURBO or ATMO. Pumping isn't free. Turbo gives you displacement augmentation, or artificial cubic inches, but you must still pay to pump the stuff in and out.
one can have backpressure lower than manifold pressure. Would you call that ICE pumping gains?

Pumping losses is an "average" of energy losses having to pull vaccum, or "suck" air in an N/A engine. It really is a combination of thermodynamics and kinetic energy. There is no "pumping" energy. With a turbo pumping through the ICE is irrelevant. The turbo defines it.

you cannot gear down the turbo. There is a clear rule about that, mentioned multiple times.

backpressure will define how much power the MGUH can make. But lets look at massflows. You would want to run the higher backpressure you can before you lose mass flow through the engine. That would maximize turbine power.

In specific scenarios, it might be worthwhile to "throttle down" the engine by letting higher backpressure limit airflow while harvesting the turbo power.

valve overlap in turbos is usually very different from N/A. Less overlap seems to be usually the case, but it depends how engines use variable valve timing.

EGR helps efficiency, because especially when running rich, you can run less rich, "reusing" fuel from a previous cycle, and using the exhaust to soak up some heat, and inject a little bit less fuel on that cycle. The temperature right after the combustion will still be much higher than the exhaust, and the exhaust could carry more heat that clean air, saving the piston.
In addition high overlap could mean you blast fresh air/fuel past the exhaust valve.

.poz
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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TinoBoost wrote:you cannot gear down the turbo. There is a clear rule about that, mentioned multiple times.
Yes you can. Rules demand a fixed ratio not a 1:1 ratio

Code: Select all

5.2.4 The MGU-H must be solely mechanically linked to the exhaust turbine of a pressure charging system. This mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the exhaust turbine and may be clutched.

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Blackout
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Remi Taffin says they want 35% more efficiency compared to the V8 in this ITW (around 5:17) while Cowell says Merc wants 30% more efficency compared to the V8 :!: :?:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJtenemHPJM

321apex
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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TinoBoost wrote:
one can have backpressure lower than manifold pressure. Would you call that ICE pumping gains?

Pumping losses is an "average" of energy losses having to pull vaccum, or "suck" air in an N/A engine. It really is a combination of thermodynamics and kinetic energy. There is no "pumping" energy. With a turbo pumping through the ICE is irrelevant. The turbo defines it.
Pumping losses are a significant factor in Otto cycle, internal combustion engines for 2 main reasons.
1. Throttling - being the worst contributor at part throttle - not exactly of a particular concern in racing engines which operate mostly at WOT
2. Valve restriction especially costly at WOT - specifically the air/gas has to overcome the small curtain area passage of a of a valve, inlet or exhaust. It takes shaft power to move the gas past this restriction each and every time.

TinoBoost wrote: you cannot gear down the turbo. There is a clear rule about that, mentioned multiple times.
Apparently the MGU-H can be geared to a fixed non 1:1 ratio
TinoBoost wrote: backpressure will define how much power the MGUH can make. But lets look at massflows. You would want to run the higher backpressure you can before you lose mass flow through the engine. That would maximize turbine power.
In my opinion, the exhaust backpressure will be a key design factor determining how much kW power can practically be harnessed from MGU-H. The exhaust turbine housing and turbine wheel will be sized to attain the necessary balance. I would not be surprised, if Renault's problems have to do with that particular area. In about 2 years, some concrete info may start to leak out.

MGU-H device is an uncharted territory for all engine makers in F1. There is NO PRIOR DATA to fall upon and steep learning curve while the rules will soon fix the specification not to be altered till the end of the season.
TinoBoost wrote:In specific scenarios, it might be worthwhile to "throttle down" the engine by letting higher backpressure limit airflow while harvesting the turbo power.
Throttling means a restriction to flow, such as a throttle valve or VVT effect causing pressure differences across the restriction. The exhaust backpressure effect however while it may have a detrimental effect on the gas exchange process doesn't result in pressure differences so calling it "throttling" is imprecise, but it does have an effect of limiting the net oxygen amount in the pre-combustion content.
TinoBoost wrote: valve overlap in turbos is usually very different from N/A. Less overlap seems to be usually the case, but it depends how engines use variable valve timing.
Not really. The required valve timing to achieve needed performance, was up until now, traditionally, in relative sense - "blind" to whether you had turbo or not (supercharging is yet different). The key factor in turbo engine valve timing has always been operating speed RPM. The reasons being was that at operating range the inlet manifold pressure and backpressure were usually closely balanced. How? Thru careful selection of turbine/compressor wheels and housings.

I said up until NOW. Because the new F1 specification may rewrite turbo boosted engine science somewhat due to new design parameters introduced in the rule book, namely the effect of MGU-H.
TinoBoost wrote: EGR helps efficiency, because especially when running rich, you can run less rich, "reusing" fuel from a previous cycle, and using the exhaust to soak up some heat, and inject a little bit less fuel on that cycle. The temperature right after the combustion will still be much higher than the exhaust, and the exhaust could carry more heat that clean air, saving the piston.
In addition high overlap could mean you blast fresh air/fuel past the exhaust valve.
Gasoline powered racing engines usually make peak power at 12-12.5:1 air/fuel ratio. So while that is "richer" than theoretical stoichiometric ratio, it is never called "rich", because that is a design optimum. It is also true, that combustion gases may contain a lot of unburned hydrocarbons. In my view no racing performance potential exists in trying to tap those unburned particles and burn them again.

EGR was the trick that helped fuel efficiency and emissions in passenger vehicle technology since the onset of CAFE and emissions regulations. Specifically, it was reducing pumping losses at part throttle (fuel savings) as well reducing combustion temperatures and reburning some small amount of unburned particles still contained in the exhaust, which helped emissions. EGR is considered to be hot and chemically inert, so it was "taking up space" inside the cylinder and by virtue of being hot, it was "soaking up" very little heat from the chemical energy of combustion.

Much different things are demanded of a racing engine. So while I admit, that some amount of internal EGR due to the combination of technical optimization of MGU-H/turbine housing/turbine wheel may enter the picture. Not necessarily by deliberate design, but by a balance of certain technical circumstances.

Apologies for such a long read :mrgreen:

Blanchimont
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W05

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kalinka wrote:Why 42MJ and not 46MJ ?
The 42 MJ/kg is the lower heating value for standard gasoline. It is taken from the book Verbrennungskraftmaschinen, a book by Prof. S. Pischinger from RWTH Aachen that is pretty much a reference book for lectures on ICEs.

The reason why i believe this figure could be used, even for the F1 engine, is that the regulations on fuel in F1 haven't changed in the past years (at least for the past 4 years) and that the fuel regulations are pretty close to the normal road fuel.

Compare article 19.3 of the and 19.4.1 of the technical regulations with this ( http://www.maierkorduletsch.de/fileadmi ... stoffe.pdf )road fuel datasheet based on DIN EN 228.

A little help:
RON = ROZ
MON = MOZ
oxygen = Sauerstoff
oxidation stability = Oxidationsstabilität
benzene = Benzolgehalt
destillation residue = Abdampfrückstand
aromatics = Aromaten
olefins = Olefine
Dear FIA, if you read this, please pm me for a redesign of the Technical Regulations to avoid finger nose shapes for 2016! :-)

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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321apex wrote:
Tommy Cookers wrote:.... the controlled turbo/recovery turbine having anyway largely eliminated pumping losses
That makes no sense! .......doesn't present your argument very well. Can you give it another try?
When you move gases in and out of a cylinder, you have to deal with pumping losses - regardless of whether it's TURBO or ATMO. Pumping isn't free. Turbo gives you displacement augmentation, or artificial cubic inches, but you must still pay to pump the stuff in and out.
@321
have edited the earlier post for clarity
have also not read the posts that came in while writing this ......

with any turbocharged engine the pumping work is 'free' for any degree of intake throttling
(and at forward pressure there is even a 'pumping gain' in crankshaft power)
in the 2014 F1 case the pumping work is trivial because the compressor will never be working against throttling
because the same desired induction pressure would be produced by running the turbo unthrottled at at a suitably lower rpm

@bb
the 1400 hp runs produced a lingering plume of black exhaust smoke
a sign the mixture was at least 70% rich (for survival)
fuel rate 350+ kg'/hr ?
maybe the actual fuel burn rate (ie stoichiometric) was 200 kg'hr
but the engine would have failed if only supplied with fuel at that rate
so 1400 hp cannot be combined with a fuel rate of 200 kg/hr
though the concept of comparison of the engines has some validity

@ the other guy
IIRC Simon's article said the valve/cutaway sizes conflicted with the desire to minimise combustion chamber volume for max CR

@blanchimont
FWIW IMO I showed maybe 9 months ago that these values are far too low
anyway,road fuel is not optimised for mass-specific energy, 2014 F1 fuel is
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on 07 Feb 2014, 15:49, edited 1 time in total.

hollowBallistix
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W05

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Blanchimont wrote:
kalinka wrote:Why 42MJ and not 46MJ ?
The 42 MJ/kg is the lower heating value for standard gasoline. It is taken from the book Verbrennungskraftmaschinen, a book by Prof. S. Pischinger from RWTH Aachen that is pretty much a reference book for lectures on ICEs.

The reason why i believe this figure could be used, even for the F1 engine, is that the regulations on fuel in F1 haven't changed in the past years (at least for the past 4 years) and that the fuel regulations are pretty close to the normal road fuel.

Compare article 19.3 of the and 19.4.1 of the technical regulations with this ( http://www.maierkorduletsch.de/fileadmi ... stoffe.pdf )road fuel datasheet based on DIN EN 228.

A little help:
RON = ROZ
MON = MOZ
oxygen = Sauerstoff
oxidation stability = Oxidationsstabilität
benzene = Benzolgehalt
destillation residue = Abdampfrückstand
aromatics = Aromaten
olefins = Olefine
With the fine quality control over the fuel blends, i wouldn't be surprised if their getting closer to 50 MJ/kg

Blanchimont
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W05

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hollowBallistix wrote:With the fine quality control over the fuel blends, i wouldn't be surprised if their getting closer to 50 MJ/kg
I really hope they use 50,5MJ/kg fuel and an engine with 40% eficiency, this would lead to power outputs of above 900hp including the MGUK and MGUH. But i don't think it's the reality, neither the 50,5MJ/kg nor the 40% efficiency.

I really hope i'm wrong on this! :wink:
Dear FIA, if you read this, please pm me for a redesign of the Technical Regulations to avoid finger nose shapes for 2016! :-)

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Blackout
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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What do you think of this?
Blackout wrote:Remi Taffin says they want 35% more efficiency compared to the V8 in this ITW (around 5:17) while Cowell says Merc wants 30% more efficency compared to the V8 :!: :?:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJtenemHPJM

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dren
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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They say they want to achieve a 30 to 35% gain in efficiency over the V8s which were running around 30% efficient. That is pushing 40% efficiency. I doubt they are there yet. But yes, high 30s with 50MJ/kg fuel nets some really large power numbers. What factors would limit such a high energy content fuel?

Also, thermal efficiency is calculated by heat released, work out, right? So any unburned fuel has to be taken out of the calculation for power since it didn't add any heat input.
Honda!

321apex
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Tommy Cookers wrote: @321

with any turbocharged engine the pumping work is 'free' for any degree of intake throttling
(and at forward pressure there is even a 'pumping gain' in crankshaft power)
in the 2014 F1 case the pumping work is trivial because the compressor will never be working against throttling
because the same desired induction pressure would be produced by running the turbo unthrottled at at a suitably lower rpm
Pumping work is not free in a turbocharged racing engine for the reason I mentioned - valve restriction. Valves are orifii thru which gas has to get in and out, it costs to move this gas back and forth. "Pumping gain" is wishful thinking . Let me refer you to a fairly recent research done on this subject by Martin Muller of Delphi Corp. (SAE Paper 2009-01-0587). I shall provide a small excerpt on the subject from page #7:

"High engine speeds
Valve Flow loss dominates. Therefore, even though the throttling loss decreases with increasing load, (P_Exh – P_Int) => 0, this is more than off-set by the increase in valve flow loss due to the high flow rates, and the overall trend is increasing pumping work with increasing load.
"

and also:
"- Turbo charged engine additional phenomena
For medium and high speeds, the boost capability becomes significant. Boost is achieved by the power generated by the turbine, which is proportional to turbine mass flow and pressure ratio. This means that under significant boost conditions, the exhaust manifold pressure increases significantly as compared to a naturally aspirated engine, and the turbine in effect acts as a significant restriction = Exhaust Throttling. Figure 14 shows that for medium engine speeds that the pumping work changes very little from low load to the lowest load with WOT. That is because the turbo charged engine essentially behaves as a naturally aspirated engine in this load region as described above. Further increase of load causes both (P_Exh – P_Int) and PMEP to increase. This is the combined effect of increased valve flow loss due to the increasing engine flow and the increase in exhaust throttling loss.
"

You may refer to this paper directly at the following link:
http://www.google.pl/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=& ... 9247,d.ZG4

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dren
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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If you utilize previously wasted energy to do the pumping, it is "free" in comparison. I think that is what TC means. Although, if increased back pressure to do the pumping robs crank power, then you are back at pumping losses from crank.
Honda!