2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

[Abarth]

I would not be too excited about reaching new milestones in fuel efficiency because of the motorsport battlefield.

For road cars, everything rotates around real world loads of the engine, i.e. an extremely high percentage of part load time.
In formula racing, part load is a very small percentage of the duty cycle. Gains in part load are necessarily much smaller for a racing car then they are for road cars (where they are essential).
Future full load gains are small for sure, and pretty expensive.

I think we'll see a battle about who has the best set of preselected mappings to have the best usage for the ES over one lap, which will change from circuit to circuit. It'll be a battle of simulators, and I wonder how the constructors will help the customer teams with this data, especially in Renaults case, as I think they are depending much on simulator data from the teams which have one...

OT, if car manufacturers want to showcase their "green" competence and be ready to spend the needed, considerable amount of money, I do not think traditional motorsports, and especially not F1, would be the way to go. They rather should set up a new formula, with windmills and photovoltaic panels, batteries and electricity to hydrogen conversion and what not, and then compete on track with the available stored energy. Would be fun to watch, a complete energy production and consumption chain would be in competition, and maybe it would be in for real new leaps forward in green technology.
Apart that, I'm also sceptical that more then 4-5 manufacturers may have interest in competing all in the same formula, but it's OT anyway, sorry.

[tuj]

what's important is that many more road cars are turbocharged now than before. Its not just Evo's and Subbies that have them, but BMW, and even Ford's and GM's. Now I agree that the powerplants we are talking about here are not particularly road relevant, but the basic concepts, such as boost management and direct injection are certainly much more relevant to a large section of road-going cars today than the V8's of yore.

I for one would love to see the MGU-K and MGU-H technologies on a road car, once they are mature of course.

OT, if they would change the rules so the engine cannot be a stressed member, maybe we would get to see BMW and Porsche in the sport. While both companies have the competency to build blocks that are structural, they've said in the past that this expense (the design of a rather useless block for road cars) has kept them out.

[WhiteBlue]

VW Porsche are not in F1 because they do not have enough influence in a business sense. All the money goes to the banks and the rules are mainly tweaked by the chassis constructors. Until such things change they will not go F1.

[Del Boy]

Does anybody know if the V6 engine has it's own alternator? Sorry if this is a stupid question I was just thinking the large batteries coupled with MGUH&K and then some previous posts regarding using MGUK would a lack of alternator be a weight saving?

I thought some more about my question and remembered the Renault alternator problems during 2012 it got me stirred up again. As I didn't get an answer I thought I'd repost when this thread was a bit quieter. Anybody know?

[tuj]

This diagram seems to suggest there will just be an extra battery, it doesn't suggest an alternator. That said, the teams might opt to run one as backup for the ERS. I couldn't tell if there was one present from the few engine pictures I've seen.

[langwadt]

Does anybody know if the V6 engine has it's own alternator? Sorry if this is a stupid question I was just thinking the large batteries coupled with MGUH&K and then some previous posts regarding using MGUK would a lack of alternator be a weight saving?

I thought some more about my question and remembered the Renault alternator problems during 2012 it got me stirred up again. As I didn't get an answer I thought I'd repost when this thread was a bit quieter. Anybody know?

I doubt they have an alternator the rules specifically show that the ES can supply unlimited to other auxiliaries and that you can have a smaller storage for non-ERS use

I remember then when Renault had alternator problems it was mentioned that it was the rules that prevented them from using power from the KERS batteries

[Skippon]

There will be no alternators in 2014 as there is indeed have more than enough energy available via ERS.

KERS never allowed for the elimination of the alternator as it was always conceived as an add on system e.g. in 2009 Brawn GP never used it nor I think the new teams Marussia/Hispania in 2011/2 etc

[Tommy Cookers]

the early 1950s Wright Turbo-Compound airctraft engine had a best bsfc of 0.385 lb/hp on 115/145 fuel of 18700 btu/lb LCV
at sea level slow cruise power, using low rpm, a lean mixture and only about 0.15 bar boost (1.15 bar absolute)
the recovery turbines adding about 6% to the crankshaft power in this operationing condition

this was 35.5% bte
the engine version without recovery would then appear to have been 33.5% efficient

subsequent (the last) versions of the T-C had a higher CR of 7.25 and exhaust exit eased (reducing recovery ?)
one former user has quoted a bsfc for these of 0.36 lb/hp, if substantiated this would represent 38% bte


NA F1 engines have eg 13.3:1 CR, this is dictated by space required for the valves and cannot be greater
these engines use fuel of only around 95 Octane (because of the very high rpm)
the 2014 engines were expected to also have a conflict over valve size and CR
all the above from insider articles featured here
and of course the 2014 engines will want to use whatever rule-unlimited Octane allowed to them for high CR and boost

intuitively it seems that if Octane is not high a forced-induction engine eg turbocharged will not necessarily have greater bsfc
because its CR will necessarily be lower (than the NA engine)
but with particularly high Octane No the turbo or otherwise centrifugal compressor-boosted engine will excel
this somewhat independent of exhaust recovery (which is available to the NA engine rather as the Wright running 1.15 bar abs)
IIRC this all related to the Air Standard efficiency ?, which accords with the useable CR, driven by Octane No and boost ?

[Lycoming]

I for one would love to see the MGU-K and MGU-H technologies on a road car, once they are mature of course.

Most if not all road going hybrids and EVs have MGU-K, and MGU-H is really only useful if you have a boost pressure limit, which road cars don't have.

OT, if they would change the rules so the engine cannot be a stressed member, maybe we would get to see BMW and Porsche in the sport. While both companies have the competency to build blocks that are structural, they've said in the past that this expense (the design of a rather useless block for road cars) has kept them out.

Originally, the current engine regs would have been for an I4 instead of a V6, and at this point some member of VW Group (I think it was Audi?) was at least thinking about doing F1. Then, Newey and others protested against the I4 on the basis that they would need to put a spaceframe around it. The draft regs changed to a V6, and VW was officially out. Somehow I don't think its likely that they would ban stressed engines in the near future.

[tuj]

and MGU-H is really only useful if you have a boost pressure limit, which road cars don't have.

Surely you don't mean this? All turbocharged road cars I know of have wastegates because they have a boost limit. Wastegate = wasted energy. So why not stick a MGU-H on the turbine and use that to control boost pressure and eliminate lag?

[Lycoming]

and MGU-H is really only useful if you have a boost pressure limit, which road cars don't have.

Surely you don't mean this? All turbocharged road cars I know of have wastegates because they have a boost limit. Wastegate = wasted energy. So why not stick a MGU-H on the turbine and use that to control boost pressure and eliminate lag?

I stand corrected. You may be right.

[wuzak]

and MGU-H is really only useful if you have a boost pressure limit, which road cars don't have.

Surely you don't mean this? All turbocharged road cars I know of have wastegates because they have a boost limit. Wastegate = wasted energy. So why not stick a MGU-H on the turbine and use that to control boost pressure and eliminate lag?

And there is no boost limit in the rules.

[wuzak]

OT, if they would change the rules so the engine cannot be a stressed member, maybe we would get to see BMW and Porsche in the sport. While both companies have the competency to build blocks that are structural, they've said in the past that this expense (the design of a rather useless block for road cars) has kept them out.

Originally, the current engine regs would have been for an I4 instead of a V6, and at this point some member of VW Group (I think it was Audi?) was at least thinking about doing F1. Then, Newey and others protested against the I4 on the basis that they would need to put a spaceframe around it. The draft regs changed to a V6, and VW was officially out. Somehow I don't think its likely that they would ban stressed engines in the near future.

The change to V6 was made after VW/Audi decided to not enter F1.

[Abarth]

And there is no boost limit in the rules.

As the engines are fuel flow limited, there is an indirect boost limit, not absolute but depending on RPM (at full load), on the charge air temperature and on how lean they chose to run at full load.

[Abarth]

[...]All turbocharged road cars I know of have wastegates because they have a boost limit. Wastegate = wasted energy. So why not stick a MGU-H on the turbine and use that to control boost pressure and eliminate lag?

Thing is that all this downsizing in road cars is done to improve part load efficiency, as with downsizing you are using the engine at higher loads. This together with more intelligent automated gear boxes, also shifting the engine operation to lower revs and higher loads.
Wastegate operation of such optimized cars is, in "normal" duty cycle, not that often, thus an MGU-H would be of relative importance in road cars.
Transient response and start of car, a problem with such downsized engines, can be bettered with an MGU-K (mild hybrid).

In race engines, downsizing will not bring that much for fuel efficiency as in road cars, as the engines are used at full load mostly.