OMG - Oh My, Greenwashing.

[autogyro]

Almost in complete balance with Montezemola's views there Alelanza.
Completely wrong of course but then Ferrari is a dieing concept as well, so he has no other choices realy.
Electric vehicle technology will be the ONLY thing to save F1.
If Murdoch buys F1, it will be relegated to pay to view TV and will slowly die anyway. The current technology is way to old for any generated interest.
Spectator numbers (even the deaf ones who like history) can never bring in the revenue to keep F1 alive and world public opinion will thrust in the final knives.
Without the new 2013 regulations including fuel efficiency, there would be very little sponsor interest available after 2012.
F1 is going through a very difficult period that has yet to be recognised by most of the 'motor heads'. If they delay things further it will be their loss.

[andrew]

Almost in complete balance with Montezemola's views there Alelanza.
Completely wrong of course but then Ferrari is a dieing concept as well, so he has no other choices realy. Electric vehicle technology will be the ONLY thing to save F1.

Any facts to back this up or is this just an opinion? Luca di Montezemolo speaks a lot of good sence but gets jumped on as he is the only one with the cajones that is prepared to stick his head above the parapet and not be a pthetic yes-man to the FIA.

If Murdoch buys F1, it will be relegated to pay to view TV and will slowly die anyway. The current technology is way to old for any generated interest.
Spectator numbers (even the deaf ones who like history) can never bring in the revenue to keep F1 alive and world public opinion will thrust in the final knives.

The current Concorde Agreement dictates that F1 HAS to be on free to view TV. Think of the revenue that would be lost should F1 be on pay to view only. It’ll never happen.

Without the new 2013 regulations including fuel efficiency, there would be very little sponsor interest available after 2012.

I sincerely doubt it. F1 will always attract sponsors given its worldwide appeal and huge audience numbers. I don’t really follow your wild statement about F1 not attracting sponsors should it not become more fuel efficient.

F1 is going through a very difficult period that has yet to be recognised by most of the 'motor heads'. If they delay things further it will be their loss.

If anything F1 is increasing in its popularity. However, if most “motor heads” have yet to recognise this then please enlighten us.

[alelanza]

Hey Auto!!! where were you anyways? I was just thinking of you towards the end of my previous post here, glad to see i was able to summon you with such precision and promptness
Anyways, do you reckon Dr. Brown's hat is a go?
Gotta love the off topic forum

[Sebp]

Just finished watching the 1990 Monaco GP. Guess what...there wasn't a single scheduled tyre stop!!

[Sebp]

Found no better place to put this article on hybrid emissions...

http://science.howstuffworks.com/scienc ... nefits.htm

[Andres125sx]

Found no better place to put this article on hybrid emissions...

http://science.howstuffworks.com/scienc ... nefits.htm

I´ve read a lot of articles like that one, where they only talk about the worst aspects they can find about hybrids and EVs...

First of all, any new technology need some evolving, and first steps are never very efficient, but even so....

Although hybrid vehicle production is more energy-intensive and results in higher production emissions, hybrid vehicles are still the greener choice overall.

And this is today, comparing a new sector with a huge margin to improve with another one that has been evolving for more than one century, so today Hybrids already are the greener choice, but the difference will be even higher year by year

Then they talk about pollution of plug-in hybrids when electricity comes from coal plants.... Why? Any reason they do the comparison only with the most polluting method we use to generate electricity?

I´m not saying they should do the comparison with electricity that comes from an Hydroelectric plant or from windmills, but an average would have been at least realistic and not so biased

Finally, they talk about Hybrids like if hybrids would be the goal, when they only are an intermediate step while batteries evolve enough for decent mileage and there are recharging stations all around to make EV really useful. Obviously Hybrids pollute a lot more than EVs so they actually pollute almost as much as petrol cars, but that´s only because they use an IC engine too, so yes, hybrids do pollute too much, they should be built without an IC engine inside

The only problem is the neccessary infrastructures for EVs is not built yet, and that´s where hybrids make sense. The goal for Hybrids is to evolve EV technology, not saving the planet. It´s EVs what may save the planet someday, but to make it possible we need to evolve EV technology first, and that´s the point were hybrids are useful, they can test and improve EVs technology even when the necessary infrastructure for EVs is not here yet



BTW, if some of you want to call greenwashing to the defense of EV, I´ll call brainwashing to the defense of petrol engines because it looks like petrol companies did their job flawlessly to discredit hybrids and EVs. They killed EVs in the 80s and now that they can´t stop it anymore they´re doing an awesome job to discredit his competitors with articles like this one

[Andres125sx]

I know you are going to bore me about efficiency and so on - the normal person does not care about this in relation to high performance racing series. They do not demand that race horses eat methane friendly fodder....they do not demand that rugby players don't eat beans....

Do they demand that race horses eat methane unfriendly fodder?

Do they demand that rugby players eat beans?


I mean, normal people doesn´t care about that at all, but for any direction!

People demand good racing, they don´t care if the fuel flow is X or 3X. They want to see racing, fights, overtakings.... the fuel flow has no interest for normal people.

Complaining about this is like complaining about F1 not using 5.0 litres engines.... yes, they would be faster, but since they all use the same engines it doesn´t matter at all

IMHO the fuel restriction is necessary to avoid 2000hp engines. If you want the teams have more freedom to evolve the car and engine, while keeping the power on rational levels, the engines should have been 1.0 as much, but you can guess what people would say with F1 using smart size engines.... so they chose to use 1.6 engines pretty limited. If they´re too slow then there´re tons of restrictions to remove and improve the perfomance, fairly easy so no problem.

[autogyro]

The problem with F1 IC engine technology is that it has all been done to death decades ago.
The tight restrictions simply mask the total lack of innovation available.
Power train suppliers simply build units to the FIA regulations by taking their information from the data discovered years ago.

It is much the same with road IC power trains.

Hybrid and EVs are by comparison proper modern scientific advance with a proper meaningful purpose.

All the motor heads have left is to go vroom vroom until they deafen themselves.

[Sebp]

What I was getting at with posting the link to that article is the fact that "green" is not necessarily green.

Hybrid technology might be slightly greener in terms of carbon footprint. My concern, however, is the chain of production. Rare earths are needed to produce these batteries. Who excavates these raw materials? Are these people being treated in a decent, respectful manner? Or are they being exploited?

I know this chain of argument is not hybrid battery specific but a general modern western society bane. We buy tons of stuff every year that someone else around has risked their life to produce in exchange for f*ck all.

So the real question is not how green is F1, it is how fair and sustainable is it?

[autogyro]

Rare earth materials remain in the batteries after their useful life just waiting to be re-cycled.
Whats that I hear about fossil fuels again, you say the fuel is burnt and the pollution goes into the atmosphere?
You are joking.

[Lycoming]

Hybrid and EVs are by comparison proper modern scientific advance with a proper meaningful purpose.

Are they? neither is exactly new technology, and one might argue that electric motors have been "done to death". Most of the real developments are in the area of battery technology. I don't really understand how hybrids are proper and conventional IC power plants are somehow not, considering hybrids have one of those too.

[autogyro]

Hybrid and EVs are by comparison proper modern scientific advance with a proper meaningful purpose.

Are they? neither is exactly new technology, and one might argue that electric motors have been "done to death". Most of the real developments are in the area of battery technology. I don't really understand how hybrids are proper and conventional IC power plants are somehow not, considering hybrids have one of those too.

I don't usually like to bring up word semantics but the above post uses the word proper in totally the wrong context.
Electric motors for use in road vehicles were used before IC engines in the 19th century, however since that time almost all development has been applied to IC technology, so electric traction has far more potential for the future than obsolete IC.

[Andres125sx]

What I was getting at with posting the link to that article is the fact that "green" is not necessarily green.

Hybrid technology might be slightly greener in terms of carbon footprint. My concern, however, is the chain of production. Rare earths are needed to produce these batteries. Who excavates these raw materials? Are these people being treated in a decent, respectful manner? Or are they being exploited?

Good question but, do you also care about the conditions people is working at oil wells, oil refineries, or about the crew of oil tankers?

Are they being treated in a decent and respectful manner?

What about their safety and health condition?

Working at a refinerie does not have any harmfull effect for their health?

[Andres125sx]

Hybrid and EVs are by comparison proper modern scientific advance with a proper meaningful purpose.

Are they? neither is exactly new technology, and one might argue that electric motors have been "done to death". Most of the real developments are in the area of battery technology. I don't really understand how hybrids are proper and conventional IC power plants are somehow not, considering hybrids have one of those too.

Most of the real developments are in the area of battery technology because motors technology is hard to improve when efficiency is over 90%

Hybrids are not proper for anything, hybrids are the missing link between the old IC technology and the future EVs, the necessary step in between while infrastructures are adapted to EVs and people get used to them, that´s the only goal for hybrids, to make the change easier

[Sebp]

Good question but, do you also care about the conditions people is working at oil wells, oil refineries, or about the crew of oil tankers?

Are they being treated in a decent and respectful manner?

What about their safety and health condition?

Working at a refinerie does not have any harmfull effect for their health?

I know this chain of argument is not hybrid battery specific but a general modern western society bane. We buy tons of stuff every year that someone else around has risked their life to produce in exchange for f*ck all.