whats wrong with the renault engines?

[henra]

Alonso; 336,4 km/h,
Kevin Magnussen: 330,2 km/h
Felipe Massa: 327,2 km/h.
---
Jean-Eric Vergne: 308,5 km/h
Sebastian Vettel: 301,6 km/h
Kamui Kobayashi: 301,5 km/h

Seems to match roughly.

Drag will increase with the square of the speed.
So for simplicity's sake lets just do the small Math:

Average of the first three: 331,3 km/h
Average of the three Reanult powered cars: 303,9 km/h

Difference: ~16% less HP. Assuming 750 HP for the Merc + ERS would mean a difference of roughly 120HP.
If the difference comes exclusively from the ERS or from the IC engine or form both that is still the question.
Reading between the lines of what has been written and said by people close to Renault or the Teams lets you assume: Probably a bit of both, but likely more severely on the ERS side.

You have to feel for all Renault powered Teams, especially Lotus. I hope it will not be the final nail in the coffin for this innovative Team. This problem has definitely Team- Killer potential for the smaller ones (all current Renault Teams except RBR) if not fixed ASAP.

[rjsa]

If you take the cubic relation between power and speed we get around 260HP out of 760HP. CORRECTED

[rjsa]

Alonso; 336,4 km/h,
Kevin Magnussen: 330,2 km/h
Felipe Massa: 327,2 km/h.
---
Jean-Eric Vergne: 308,5 km/h
Sebastian Vettel: 301,6 km/h
Kamui Kobayashi: 301,5 km/h

Seems to match roughly.

Drag will increase with the square of the speed.
So for simplicity's sake lets just do the small Math:

Average of the first three: 331,3 km/h
Average of the three Reanult powered cars: 303,9 km/h

Difference: ~16% less HP. Assuming 750 HP for the Merc + ERS would mean a difference of roughly 120HP.
If the difference comes exclusively from the ERS or from the IC engine or form both that is still the question.
Reading between the lines of what has been written and said by people close to Renault or the Teams lets you assume: Probably a bit of both, but likely more severely on the ERS side.

You have to feel for all Renault powered Teams, especially Lotus. I hope it will not be the final nail in the coffin for this innovative Team. This problem has definitely Team- Killer potential for the smaller ones (all current Renault Teams except RBR) if not fixed ASAP.

Power goes with the cube of speed, it's drag times speed, the theoretical difference is around 3.2% in power for 10% in speed.

EDIT I WAS WRONG: 33,1% power for 10% speed.

[darkmninya]

I read.mercedes and ferrari are only running 80% of RPM

[vtr]

Power goes with the cube of speed, it's drag times speed, the theoretical difference is around 3.2% in power for 10% in speed.

If power goes up with the cube of speed, it is surely a (1.10)^3-1 = 0.33 = 33% increase of power for 10% increase of speed? Otherwise it would be way too easy to get a faster top speed.

[Juzh]

I read.mercedes and ferrari are only running 80% of RPM

That's because above 80% RPM power drops off and there's no point in running past that point. 80-85% rpm is max power.

[rjsa]

Power goes with the cube of speed, it's drag times speed, the theoretical difference is around 3.2% in power for 10% in speed.

If power goes up with the cube of speed, it is surely a (1.10)^3-1 = 0.33 = 33% increase of power for 10% increase of speed? Otherwise it would be way too easy to get a faster top speed.

You're right:

Power = V * 1/2*rho*S*V^2*CD

Power = V^3*(1/2*rho*CD)

1.10 ^ (3) = 1.331

[henra]

Power goes with the cube of speed, it's drag times speed, the theoretical difference is around 3.2% in power for 10% in speed.

Ouch!
Obviously you're right. While (drag) force is a square function of velocity, power equals force times velocity.
Reminder to self: Don't drink and type...

[Juzh]

Pretty good example of what 80bhp is capable of:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OmnjYNypB4[/youtube]

[rjsa]

Power goes with the cube of speed, it's drag times speed, the theoretical difference is around 3.2% in power for 10% in speed.

Ouch!
Obviously you're right. While (drag) force is a square function of velocity, power equals force times velocity.
Reminder to self: Don't drink and type...

I don't even have the drunk excuse for my poor math

[Robbobnob]

The real question is what % of ERS capacity are they running at?

We already know they faced installation issues on their cars in Jerez and that caused significant overheating. Perhaps the work around to get test mileage is to run at a significantly lower capacity than the other teams... considering the other teams had Jerez to do the same.

Its more reflective of Renaults position on the 'S-curve' of learning than of a significant power deficit at this point. If Renault had anywhere near the Km's that Ferrari and Merc did then I would be totally worried about potential power issues. Right now the important thing is that the teams get the systems working.

[tim|away]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8v0CAwL7E40[/youtube]

[henra]

The second Round of Tesing havong finished now, it still looks rather dull for the Renault powered Teams.
Although no one exactly states that Renault is to blame for this it seems like a bit much of a coincidence that all Renault powered cars appear to attract trouble to a disproportionate amount. Even Caterham with its huge sidepods and running rather slowly all the week seemed to have Power Unit problems today.
No Renault powered car was able to get closer than 5s to the Merc's fastest lap and there where practically no fast longruns (read: realistic race simulations) so far by any Renault powered Team. Looks like a miracle is urgently required in Viry.

I start to wonder what FIA's Plan B is to help saving the concerned Teams, should the Renault engine not quickly recover. Or will Bernie be happy with a Formula 1 with just 16 cars?

[Pup]

So long as 22 cars start, and the races are exciting, then the fans will be happy. As will Bernie and the FIA. If anything, people will tune in just to see the Renaults detonate.

If I were Bernie, I'd have my eye on Mercedes rather than Red Bull. If they're as strong on race day as they seem to be in practice, then they could dominate this year just like Red Bull and Ferrari have in the past. That's what keeps fans away.

[henra]

So long as 22 cars start, and the races are exciting, then the fans will be happy. As will Bernie and the FIA. If anything, people will tune in just to see the Renaults detonate.

Yes but it is safe to assume that 2-3 out of the 4 Renault Teams (all except RB) won't be there any more by Mid- Season (if not earlier) if things don't improve massively, hence my 16 cars statement.

If I were Bernie, I'd have my eye on Mercedes rather than Red Bull. If they're as strong on race day as they seem to be in practice, then they could dominate this year just like Red Bull and Ferrari have in the past. That's what keeps fans away.

That could well be the case but it is still way to early to be sure that this is what will happen, although the Mercs do look very fast indeed.
Re Red Bull: I' m not too concerned about Red Bull. Nor will be Bernie. They could even survive a bad year and start early preparing for 2015 possibly with a new Engine supplier.
I am worried about Lotus, Caterham and to some extent STR.