2014 too slow? (or not, as the case may be)

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Juzh
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Re: 2014 too slow? (or not, as the case may be)

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beelsebob wrote: Actually, at monza, I suspect they'll use it towards the end of straights for top speed, because they will be traction limited under acceleration thanks to the flatter torque curve. I suspect ERS will be used as a "once beyond 6th gear" device there.
Can they actually do that? Even if they can I severely doubt they'll actually do it. Isn't it better to accelerate sooner so you can carry more speed for more time down the straight, as opposed to accelerate later but maybe gain more speed at the end of straight for a fraction of the time?
Gridlock wrote:It's not actually one fixed set of ratios for the entire season, is it? They get to swap one, around halfway through the year? So they'll have optimised two subtly different sets of ratios - and if your car were, I don't know, red? Maybe you'll have an 8th gear in there just for Monza?
Could be the case, but there's still lots of races you'd be left compromised if you optimize for monza only. Once they change ratios, they can't reverse back to the old ones.

beelsebob
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Re: 2014 too slow? (or not, as the case may be)

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Juzh wrote:
beelsebob wrote: Actually, at monza, I suspect they'll use it towards the end of straights for top speed, because they will be traction limited under acceleration thanks to the flatter torque curve. I suspect ERS will be used as a "once beyond 6th gear" device there.
Can they actually do that? Even if they can I severely doubt they'll actually do it.
Why would they not be able to do it?
Isn't it better to accelerate sooner so you can carry more speed for more time down the straight, as opposed to accelerate later but maybe gain more speed at the end of straight for a fraction of the time?
Normally, yes... But these cars are already traction limited. You don't want to apply more torque if all it's going to do is spin the wheels.

That said, there's another possibility, which may be the most likely of all – they'll use ERS exactly when the ICE is at its least fuel efficient point, allowing them to dodge right past it, and save fuel.
Gridlock wrote:It's not actually one fixed set of ratios for the entire season, is it? They get to swap one, around halfway through the year? So they'll have optimised two subtly different sets of ratios - and if your car were, I don't know, red? Maybe you'll have an 8th gear in there just for Monza?
Could be the case, but there's still lots of races you'd be left compromised if you optimize for monza only. Once they change ratios, they can't reverse back to the old ones.
It doesn't really need monza only optimisation - Belgium, Japan, CotA, brazil and abu dhabi will all benefit from a long 8th gear. Singapore and Russia would probably have never have touched 8th, even with a short one.

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Juzh
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Re: 2014 too slow? (or not, as the case may be)

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beelsebob wrote: Why would they not be able to do it?
Is such precise ers mapping allowed in the regs? I thought ers discharge must be proportional to the throttle position.
It doesn't really need monza only optimisation - Belgium, Japan, CotA, brazil and abu dhabi will all benefit from a long 8th gear. Singapore and Russia would probably have never have touched 8th, even with a short one.
Comparing to previous years I can't see longer 8th being better for anything other than monza and maybe spa. What are you going to do with, lets say, 350kph rev limit in japan? Brazil or Cota are even worse in that regard. During the race in brazil highest speeds were ~310 kph. You'll be loosing too much time with too long gears if you ask me.

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Gridlock
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Re: 2014 too slow? (or not, as the case may be)

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They can't have 2 options and swap them, they get one swap during the year - so the teams will have planned that if they don't need to make this change for reliability/design error/whatever reasons, they will be running one set for X races and then picking their best time to change to the second ratio set:
From 2014, F1 gearboxes have an extra gear; however those eight gears must be selected before the first race of the season and then those same ratios must be used at every track on the calendar. For this year only teams are allowed to change the ratios once (in case they get their gearing wildly wrong), but after that any changes will incur penalties. Therefore it’s imperative that teams come up with a range of ratios suitable for every track - no easy task with circuits ranging from tight and twisty Monaco to flat-out Monza.
http://www.formula1.com/news/features/2014/1/15408.html

So, they could have one long 8th for 'up-until-Monza', if Monza were important to them.
#58

Blanchimont
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Re: 2014 too slow? (or not, as the case may be)

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http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 87032.html

2014 cars achieve faster top speeds. Alonso was measured at 336,4km/h during the test, that's 22,2km/h more than in 2013. Magnussen was second fastest and did 330,2km/h and Massa in third position 327,2km/h.
Nico Rosberg confirms: "We are very fast at the straights, we'll probably do 360km/h at Monza."
Dear FIA, if you read this, please pm me for a redesign of the Technical Regulations to avoid finger nose shapes for 2016! :-)

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Blackout
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Re: 2014 too slow? (or not, as the case may be)

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Alonso; 336,4 km/h,
Kevin Magnussen: 330,2 km/h
Felipe Massa: 327,2 km/h.

---

Jean-Eric Vergne: 308,5 km/h
Sebastian Vettel: 301,6 km/h
Kamui Kobayashi: 301,5 km/h

Edit Blanchimont was faster again

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Juzh
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Re: 2014 too slow? (or not, as the case may be)

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Okay, that's impressive.

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Gridlock
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Re: 2014 too slow? (or not, as the case may be)

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210mph :wtf: =D>
#58

beelsebob
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Re: 2014 too slow? (or not, as the case may be)

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Fingers crossed that this implies that Blanchimont and Radion are actually going to be corners the drivers care about again.

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ecapox
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Re: 2014 too slow? (or not, as the case may be)

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Yep. Looks like Spa is going to, again after many years, take some major stones to take things to the limit.

Even 130R
Even Turkey (if it was still on the calendar) :-(

Excited

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rscsr
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Re: 2014 too slow? (or not, as the case may be)

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turbof1 wrote:
Maxion wrote:
There are 2 limits: 160hp and 4MJ. Hence why the 33,33s came up.

Do note you aren't asking power from the MGU-K when off throttle. On a circuit like Monte Carlo you'll never get to 33,33s. If it weren't for the 2MJ recovery limit (on the mgu-k only, so just maybe the mgu-h can cover up the other 2MJ), you could just cruise around on full power lap after lap.
After some thoughts on the data we got and the reglement.
They will be able to use the full 160bhp of the MGU-K motor because the reglement basically limits it to that power. They are allowed to use the mentioned 4MJ/lap (or 2MJ/lap every lap) from the energy storage. But they are allowed to feed as much energy as they want from the MGU-H to the MGU-K, but they are still limited by the 160bhp.
Therefore I believe that they will be using the full 160bhp whenever they want.

Look at the graphs there: http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... 42#p478542

timbo
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Re: 2014 too slow? (or not, as the case may be)

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Rosbeg just did 1:33.662.

EDIT: and now 1:33.283

Blanchimont
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Re: 2014 too slow? (or not, as the case may be)

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timbo wrote:Rosbeg just did 1:33.662.

EDIT: and now 1:33.283
Definitely too slow for me, F1 has lost me. I'm going to watch Nascar this season :wink: :mrgreen:
Dear FIA, if you read this, please pm me for a redesign of the Technical Regulations to avoid finger nose shapes for 2016! :-)

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FW17
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Re: 2014 too slow? (or not, as the case may be)

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Blackout wrote:Alonso; 336,4 km/h,
Kevin Magnussen: 330,2 km/h
Felipe Massa: 327,2 km/h.

---

Jean-Eric Vergne: 308,5 km/h
Sebastian Vettel: 301,6 km/h
Kamui Kobayashi: 301,5 km/h

Edit Blanchimont was faster again

Was 336 with or without DRS?

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WhiteBlue
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Re: 2014 too slow? (or not, as the case may be)

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timbo wrote:Rosbeg just did 1:33.662.

EDIT: and now 1:33.283
So if I'm not totally wrong we are now four seconds faster than the fastest race lap last year and it is not the end of the development of performance but very much the start.

It is still true that the cars will have less downforce and more weight. It follows that we will have significantly more power than it was initially thought.

If I would belong to the group that thought the naked ICE will not reach 40% BTE in 2014 I would start to rethink my point of view.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)