Mclaren Mercedes 2014

[Emerson.F]

We found him...

[FoxHound]

The rate card comment is the end to speculation about title sponsors IMO. Edit - about why there isn't one, when combined with earlier comments about financially taking the hit themselves this year to ensure good funding.

Play the long game - don't devalue your own product.

Mclaren have devalued their sponsorship, not their product.
The sad fact is there is a huge difference between what McLaren think their sponsorship value is, to that what people will pay.

Mclaren running title sponsorless this year is not ideal for them. The spin emanating from woking is that it was the teams decision. Well, now they have a rather big budgetry black hole.

[frosty125]

What black hole?

They have chosen to turn down stop gap sponsors. They are still getting 50% of their Vodafone money and the shareholders are re-investing the money that would normally have been paid out as a dividend.

If McLaren start scoring podiums or even wins over the next few races and Kevin Magnussen is as fast as some people think he is then I'm sure McLaren can negotiate a better long term deal. I think Ron and McLaren know exactly what they are doing

[Del Boy]

I thought - The title sponsor to be announced on 5th December 2013 was to be Telemex. Once Perez was released that deal went sour, the real reason Whitmarsh was so keen to place Perez at another F1 team was he hoped by keeping Carlos Slim happy the title sponsorship deal would remain in tact. Once Telemex officially pulled the plug Ron Dennis had to act. In the board room coup he had a number of bullets to load his gun with and Whitmarsh was he's scapegoat.

Why redesign the fastest race of 2012 instead of just developing it? Particularly when a major rule change is so near.

Why let Hamilton go when you know he was quicker than Button particularly in qualifying?

Why or rather how do you sack Perez when you know a multi-million pound sponsor deal goes with him? (I'm not suggesting he was a pay driver) but as above you know he's slower than Hamilton?

Plus all the silly errors that came every weekend!

I am a big fan and can not understand the last 5 years it was frustrating to watch at times, so un- McLaren like. I can only imagine what Ron felt. Ron Dennis loves McLaren and has done since 1982. At least he had the road cars to focus on and take his mind off the idiots running the shop over the road!

Of course this just MHO

[onewingedangel]

Ron had more than a hand in influencing Lewis' decision and dropping Perez.

[alexx_88]

Martin Witmarsh explained the reasoning for starting fresh on the 2013 car a number of times. Basically, when the design direction was to be decided (after the summer break of 2012 if I am not mistaken), they hadn't had aerodynamic gains for a number of weeks already and thought that the 2012 design reached its limit. In hindsight, that proved not to be the case, but given the information available at that point, he took the right decision.

Martin Witmarsh

The start of the 2012 was good, but then in mid-season we were falling behind and it is about that time that you make these decisions -- and then last year's car became quicker and quicker.

It was bad timing, it was misjudgment, and it was ambition. It is very clear in hindsight that we've got it wrong. But let's also be fair: this car is now quicker than last year's car.

Source: http://edition.cnn.com/2013/08/27/sport ... whitmarsh/

If Mclaren are going to be successful in 2014, praising Ron's return and not taking into account Witmarsh's contribution, as many people seem to do, would be terribly wrong, IMO.

[Manoah2u]

Martin Witmarsh explained the reasoning for starting fresh on the 2013 car a number of times. Basically, when the design direction was to be decided (after the summer break of 2012 if I am not mistaken), they hadn't had aerodynamic gains for a number of weeks already and thought that the 2012 design reached its limit. In hindsight, that proved not to be the case, but given the information available at that point, he took the right decision.

Martin Witmarsh

The start of the 2012 was good, but then in mid-season we were falling behind and it is about that time that you make these decisions -- and then last year's car became quicker and quicker.

It was bad timing, it was misjudgment, and it was ambition. It is very clear in hindsight that we've got it wrong. But let's also be fair: this car is now quicker than last year's car.

Source: http://edition.cnn.com/2013/08/27/sport ... whitmarsh/

If Mclaren are going to be successful in 2014, praising Ron's return and not taking into account Witmarsh's contribution, as many people seem to do, would be terribly wrong, IMO.

Not at all. There have been zero successes since the installment of Whitmarsh at the team. Every single time it's some lame excuse with 'hindsight' about decisions, but the truth is, they're still very bad decisions, decisions, that can't be taken lightly in F1. It's not a decision whether to move the furniture. These are decisions that will make or break the championship possibilities. RedBull didn't make those decisions. Mercedes didn't. Lotus didn't.
Well, actually, there were some features installed on these cars, which didn't prove to be what they'd expected.

But under Whitmarsh' reign, Mclaren has missed the ball by such a mile time and time again it's just embarassing.
The F-duct was a device that could've given them that little extra to make it into the championship. it didn't work out.
then we had the weird U-shaped pods. Should have been great - wasn't at all.
Finally a car that is very competetive, then midseason it drops, then picks up again - still didn't make it.
Then, a year before the complete F1 overhaul into 2014, a completely new car from scratch that is insanely slow and horrible. Failure, yet again.
But that's not just it, it's a whole bunch of failures. Louzy team failures during pitstops, unacceptable for a (should be) title contending team as professional as MCL. not just once, but it cost several DNF's due to stupid, stupid errors.
Cars underperforming due to balance issues. The team spirit went so bad, that Hamilton gave them the finger and went to Merc. Hamilton's displeasement with Mclaren was clear for a couple of seasons, it surprised me he didn't left earlier.
Dennis did not take this lightly.
Then they put a promising Sergio Perez into the car. Perhaps a little too soon, he might have done well with some more maturing at Sauber. But gave him a horrible, horrible car then dumped him like a piece of garbage because Whitmarsh singlehandedly made a decisive error that they were to house Magnussen in F1 in 2014.

This is Martin Whitmarsh' responsibility as the team principle. It's as simple as that. Sure he might be a friendly guy, but there it ends, he isn't capable of the function at Mclaren. not by enough. A couple of wins in cars that with better leadership and decisions might actually have been title winning cars.

The only reason Mclaren was able to keep in the front was due to the driver pairings: Hamilton and Button. Then hamilton left, and rookie Perez who wasn't up for the task (yet) was given, just as Button, a car that is IMPOSSIBLE to get to the front.

and the final statement "it's now faster then last years car" just made me feel awkward.

No, whitmarsh is over. out. done for. The entire structure has been regained under the direct influence of Ron Dennis. Atleast he gets things done. I haven't seen a clearer difference in team structure since the return of Ron Dennis at Mclaren, which just shows mclaren was drifting into the abyss.

I have high hopes for Mclaren. not for 2014, i think they'll do very well in 2014, but 2015 is going to be the goal, with Honda. If it were for Whitmarsh, well, he seems responsible for losing a very important sponsorship deal (no light thing),
i'm starting to feel he could've lost Honda's deal along the way if it weren't for Ron Dennis stepping in.

I like the guy, but no single tear is shed for the loss of Martin Whitmarsh.

I hope the tooned series are over, too. It just doesn't fit the profile of Mclaren. It's childish. It paints an image of a team that's more occupied with cartoons then winning the championship.

[FoxHound]

What black hole?

The one The Judge 13 referred to in his article over the loss of Vodafone.

There is also no substantiated reports(That I may find) of Vodafone paying 50% of last years sponsorship to McLaren this year.
The fact is Vodafone paid their money last year and didn't get a McLaren on the podium the entire season. If there are grounds for a clean split without a substantial penalty, it is here some would argue. But like I say, no substantiated reports thus far.

[FoxHound]

@Manoah

Why would you not credit Whitmarsh in light of Red Bulls complete domination? You are implying that McLaren have fallen from grace due to Whitmarsh, when the reality is the fall is mainly due to the Red Bull domination.
You also forget that McLaren split with Mercedes in this time and lost the huge sums of cash Merc paid the team to run their engines.
Not least the close links of a former ally where partly severed so as not to trample the toes of the factory team.
Close links they had with Brixworth yes, but not Mercedes priority.

They where on average the second team behind Red Bull up until Hamilton left. Ron Dennis presiding over the team would not have changed this at all.

[Gridlock]

Vodafone have non-F1 reasons for wanting to improve their balance sheet, so performance penalties could have been activated in 2013 or it could have been a graceful and planned divergence - doubt we'll ever know.

If someone offers you 40% of what you are asking, but you know (as Ron knows) that this year will not be another 2013, you turn it down so you're not in a position of weakness at the end of this year. That's what I meant by "don't devalue your own product" - it's kinda like why Apple don't do a cheap iPhone (no mobile phone wars off-topic rants, sorry, but it's a good example).

Before the rate card comment I believed Honda were signed as title sponsor but for obvious reasons (and less obvious ones, I don't pretend to understand Japanese rules of.. existence) it wasn't going to be active in 2014, now I believe they turned down stopgaps and have things in the pipeline - like they say.

Having a title sponsor announced within the first few races of this year doesn't neatly fit either of those theories, unfortunately,

[Manoah2u]

@Manoah

Why would you not credit Whitmarsh in light of Red Bulls complete domination? You are implying that McLaren have fallen from grace due to Whitmarsh, when the reality is the fall is mainly due to the Red Bull domination.
You also forget that McLaren split with Mercedes in this time and lost the huge sums of cash Merc paid the team to run their engines.
Not least the close links of a former ally where partly severed so as not to trample the toes of the factory team.
Close links they had with Brixworth yes, but not Mercedes priority.

They where on average the second team behind Red Bull up until Hamilton left. Ron Dennis presiding over the team would not have changed this at all.

Because the simple fact is RedBull's domination should not be put too much into the equasion. Why? Because it's always been same-same throughout history. It didn't stop Mclaren from fighting back when 'Der Schumi' was having the same domination with Ferrari. As for that team - Ferrari - they themselves proved quite a worthy opponent to RedBull the past years. The difference is though, where RedBull did have their things handled properly, as did Ferrari, Mclaren seemed to scoop up (unneccesary) error after error. It is without doubt these things contineously increased Hamilton's displeasement with Mclaren.
And in the end - yes, Whitmarsh - despite the fact that i like the fella - as Team Principal, IS the responsibility there. Errors CAN be made - but, the possibility that they actually happen should be put to a minimum. They had lousy, seriously lousy pitstops, where the competition made work of having flawless and fastest pitstops. And, they managed repeatedly to turn these lousy pitstops into DNF's due to f.e. wheel locks not properly mounted.
A piece of equipment left in Button's sidepod (wasn't it monaco?) - that ruined his race. absolutely unacceptable.
Fuel problems just moments before a race on Hamiltons car. Lousy strategy calls.

The thing is, Mclaren had the potential to be nearly just as fast as the RedBull teams. Repeated (team) errors killed any prospects of beating RedBull on professionalism when RedBull was having a bad day. Mclaren still competing with RB was due to magnificent drives of Hamilton and Button. The full picture of Mclaren's issues became as clear as it gets during past season, and at the end of it.

They should have went with the 2012 car at the first sign of trouble with the 2013 car. Take the loss of development on the '13 spec car, it's not the first time Mclaren ditched a design that didn't deliver and used a car of the previous season.

Who makes the decisions? Whitmarsh. Who should, when either drivers or team members not perform according to the professionalism expected, adress these? Whitmarsh. So yes, Martin - despite it's logical he didn't construct the 2013 car himself from a shed outside of the weekends, but has an entire team to do that - IS the one responsible for this.

After the Spygate scandal, Whitmarsh took seat, and since then, it's been nothing but trouble. Mark my words; Ron Dennis waving the scepter again now, will have Mclaren back up to the front, and team errors will NOT be taken lightly.

Bouillier replacing Whitmarsh will have direct results for Mclaren. Bouillier being able to keep lotus together, despite their financial struggles, despite having a crazy driver that famously nearly decapiteted Alonso, managed to be at the very front of the pack, even engaging into a fight with the 'RedBull Surpremo's'. Bouillier did a better job at Lotus then Whitmarsh did at Mclaren. Im not saying Bouillier did a better job then Flavio though.

And Mclaren losing Mercedes is not at all of interest to the entire point. They were gonna lose them either way, that's been apparant for several years now, especially since Mercedes got their own team. Mclaren is gonna go Honda in 2015 - they're having a strict agreement they'll be the sole team carrying the Honda powerplant for 2015. I'm feeling though somehow whitmarsh doesn't have the strenght to maintain that demand from Honda, bringing in the risk of a competitor getting a Honda engine for 2015. Ron Dennis however, is manly enough to demand that from even Honda.

It's my opinion, though, and everybody has theirs. But if I put Ron next to Martin, I see a Big strong character in Ron Dennis that instantly breathes a demand for respect, while if i look at Martin, I just see a kind friendly chap that under pressure gets weak legs. His friendly appearance does make a good PR image, but that can turn against itself creating the image of weakness. Ron will not tolerate weakness. THAT's the entire point.

[Avocado]

[FoxHound]

@manoah

That is all factually incorrect. Ron Dennis presided over Ferrari's period of domination did he not?
5 years of finishing second, AND red bull did not exist for the majority of that time.

So what did Whitmarsh do wrong in the face of greater competition that Ron Dennis did correctly in the face of less competition that makes you so certain?

[KingHamilton01]

@manoah

That is all factually incorrect. Ron Dennis presided over Ferrari's period of domination did he not?
5 years of finishing second, AND red bull did not exist for the majority of that time.

So what did Whitmarsh do wrong in the face of greater competition that Ron Dennis did correctly in the face of less competition that makes you so certain?

Well ron dennis was making sure that at least McLaren were second best and you recieve a lot more money in the championship for that firstly. Whitmarsh should have imo made sure we won championship with the mp4-27 which was a belter of a car, poor mistakes made by him in both qualifying and races with poor stratergy.

He also Allowed McLaren to fall below a set standard, there are many example's that can be used for this, but it was all over the paper's that many McLaren staff found Whitmarsh unprofessional and not serious enough in his role with the team.

Personally the way he came across for me most of the time, especially last season was not acceptable. He would often have a smile on his face after McLaren have had a poor race, in the past Ron dennis would take a much better approach and I already believe Boullier comes across much better and will prove to be a great acquisition for the team.
McLaren didn't win a race last season, which is what they exsist for like Ron has said recently! would McLaren be in a better position if Whitmarsh kept his job for the coming season? I would strongly disagree.

[FoxHound]

Back in the old days mclaren only had Ferrari to beat.
These days Red Bull, ferrari and Mercedes have put paid to the old status quo.
And mclaren did go without a single race win for almost 3 seasons under Dennis between 94/96.

When Honda arrive if the power unit is not up to scratch (unlikely but still) who will dennis blame?