2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

[Skippon]

I think this is the same artists representation we have seen before and isn't real - so I wouldn't read too much in to it!!!!

[Holm86]

for months I have been predicting that one bank will have a longer exhaust pipe than the other (and feel vindicated in this ?)

but I can't see what the crankshaft looks like, please can someone with better eyes and brain and IT competence help out here ?

Could you please recap why having a longer pipe from one bank is advantageous??? I've wondered why Mercedes has chosen a single entry turbine.

And don't mind the crankshaft in this video as it is not true to reality. At the last part you can see the con rods hitting each other and its not true to the regulations stating only 3 crank throws.

[Tommy Cookers]

the 90 deg 'true' V6 (ie 3 crank throws, side-by-side rods) will not deliver equi-spaced pulses to a single turbo
(120 deg V angle would be needed for that)
if one of our 90 deg banks has suitably more downpipe length than the other bank has, the pulses will arrive quite equally spaced
over a limited rpm range anyway
any inequality of spacing causes some interference and loss of pulse energy IMO
assuming that a double entry turbo is not the complete answer to unequal spacing (some interference will occur in the turbo ?)
the single turbo F1 Renault in the 70s also had a clear difference in the pipe lengths, presumably (to me) for this reason

[wuzak]

the 90 deg 'true' V6 (ie 3 crank throws, side-by-side rods) will not deliver equi-spaced pulses to a single turbo
(120 deg V angle would be needed for that)
if one of our 90 deg banks has suitably more downpipe length than the other bank has, the pulses will arrive quite equally spaced
over a limited rpm range anyway
any inequality of spacing causes some interference and loss of pulse energy IMO
assuming that a double entry turbo is not the complete answer to unequal spacing (some interference will occur in the turbo ?)
the single turbo F1 Renault in the 70s also had a clear difference in the pipe lengths, presumably (to me) for this reason

The unequal length headers will work over a small range of rpm - which is probably ok for F1.

The twin scroll/dual entry design should work over a wider range. The exhaust gases from each bank don't meet until they hit the turbine blades. The advantage is there is no interference between exhaust pulse.

This is also why the V8s had flat plane cranks.

[wuzak]

The twin scroll/ual entry turbo also gives a packaging benefit, since the turbo's location is limited by the regulations.

[Tommy Cookers]

....... The advantage is there is no interference between exhaust pulse.
This is also why the V8s had flat plane cranks.

cross-plane cranks did not have a pulse interference problem as long as 'crossover headers' were used
impossible in front engined cars so eg the Lancia D50 had interference, Ferrari brought to that car an 8-8 system to avoid this
but was no great problem in 61/2 F1 to Coventry-Climax or with Detroit or Indy V8s in rear engined cars
single plane ('flat') cranks were introduced by C-C as lighter, cheaper and allowing more compact and simpler exhaust systems
no-one claimed increased power AFAIK
these were customer engines produced on a commercial basis
the total spend in F1 was then maybe about 5% of the modern level

[mrluke]

Is it an assumption that the single entry to the mercedes turbo means it is only a single scroll or is there something that shows this to be true?

i.e. most twin scroll turbines in normal cars have a single entry point so the merc turbo could still be twin scroll.

[langwadt]

....... The advantage is there is no interference between exhaust pulse.
This is also why the V8s had flat plane cranks.

cross-plane cranks did not have a pulse interference problem as long as 'crossover headers' were used
impossible in front engined cars so eg the Lancia D50 had interference, Ferrari brought to that car an 8-8 system to avoid this
but was no great problem in 61/2 F1 to Coventry-Climax or with Detroit or Indy V8s in rear engined cars
single plane ('flat') cranks were introduced by C-C as lighter, cheaper and allowing more compact and simpler exhaust systems
no-one claimed increased power AFAIK
these were customer engines produced on a commercial basis
the total spend in F1 was then maybe about 5% of the modern level

I'd assume that at once you reach a certain RPM range the flat-plane has a power advantage because the exhaust cross over needed for a cross plane would make the headers too long

[ringo]

Why is one bank of pipe longer?
Can someone say this in simpler terms with one sentence. I'm not sure what is being implied with the pulses, or what effect interference is suggesting.

[ringo]

I feel renault has lost the battle with their MGUH between the banks.
They are limited by MGUH diameter and hence torque when it's placed over the engine. I also notice that the mercedes has nice straight run of stable air going directly to the compressor. The Renault has some funky inlet design.

I would be very pleased if i could see these engines in the flesh instead of these artist renderings.

[wuzak]

I feel renault has lost the battle with their MGUH between the banks.
They are limited by MGUH diameter and hence torque when it's placed over the engine. I also notice that the mercedes has nice straight run of stable air going directly to the compressor. The Renault has some funky inlet design.

I would be very pleased if i could see these engines in the flesh instead of these artist renderings.

Ferrari may also have the MGU-H in the vee. They certainly haven't "lost the battle".

I don't think there is any great disadvantage in Renault's compressor entry - since the shaft takes up some of the centre area anyway.

[tok-tokkie]

for months I have been predicting that one bank will have a longer exhaust pipe than the other (and feel vindicated in this ?)

but I can't see what the crankshaft looks like, please can someone with better eyes and brain and IT competence help out here ?

Press the space bar to freeze the video. At 2m12s to 2m13s is the crankshaft. It is weird. 3 throw but each throw has two bigends about 90° apart. I know Honda use something similar on the V4 VFR engines but the spacing between the 2 cranks is just 28° and it is clear how the crankpin is machined to give that. On this cgi it is not clear but there seems to be a bit of a web between the 2 journals.

[piast9]

Press the space bar to freeze the video. At 1m12s to 2m13s is the crankshaft. It is weird. 3 throw but each throw has two bigends about 90° apart. I know Honda use something similar on the V4 VFR engines but the spacing between the 2 cranks is just 28° and it is clear how the crankpin is machined to give that. On this cgi it is not clear but there seems to be a bit of a web between the 2 journals.

Great find! That would explain different sound of the Mercedes engine. I suspected that Mercedes doesn't use straight shared crankpins for both banks but there's an offset however I thought the offset would be small like in the VR6 engines.

[Blanchimont]

I don't know if we can learn anything about the crankshaft from this video. If you stop the video at 0:25, you'll see 8 cylinders and in the next second two of them disappear.

Edit: Didn't pay attention to the sound, it should just visualize the regulation change from 8 to 6 cylinders.

Another thing: Do the rods move through each other in the video?

[Abarth]

Quite some things:
1. Equal firing space of a cylinder bank in a N/A engine brings better cylinder filling at predeterminded rpm, as the equal pulses with resulting low pressure backwave are sucking out exhaust charge of the cylinder. With big enough overlap of intake and exhaus valve timing (both open), you can achieve quite a bette filling and hence power.
This is one primary reason that racing V8 have flat plane crankshaft.
But you need exactly same length of the exhaus manifold.

2. In a racing V6 90 deg and if you use a three throw crankshaft (120 deg spacing) each bank has equal spaced firing intervals. But left to right bank has an offset of 30 deg.
You can account for it with uneven pipes between left and right.

3. Isn't the travel time of the pulses relatetd to temperature of the gas and less so on rpm? The rpm will determine frequency though.
With different length, i believe you can account for uneven firing intervals in a fairly broad rpm range.

4. The crankshaft mercedes is showing seems to have 4 journals but is in fact 6 throw, IF this video is correct. Opposite cylinders should be spaced 30 deg to achieve even firing intervals, in the video it seems to be 90 deg, which would lead to both opposite pistons reach TDC at the same crank angle. That would also lead to even intervals. Interesting! Maybe this would give some advantages in free mass forces and moments...?