2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

[Holm86]

To abarth: yes, sound. Now that you mention, "pretty sure" is too much. I'd better say "suspect".

I have a kind of a trained ear, and these things sing aloud. If you miss a fire in 8, it may go unnoticed. But if you fire unevenly all the time (bang-bang, bang-bang, bang-bang...) the music changes. And the renault, turbo hiss apart, is very much like the old V8 screamer.

Sound by itself can be misleading.
Subaru "boxer" passenger car engines are even firing 4 cylinders while they do sound quite different than an in-line 4. What would your "trained ear" likely suspect ?

Subaru engines sound special because of their unequal length exhaust manifolds. This is also why I suspect the Mercedes engine sounds different from the others. Because of their special exhaust design before the turbo.

[Abarth]

Agreed. 4 Cyl. Boxer do have unequal firing intervals per bank. As they do firstly bring together the two cylinders of same bank and then, with unequal length, the other bank, this can lead to the special sound.

Same can well be with Renault and Mercedes:
Renault using such a length difference that 6 evenly spaced pulses arrive at the turbine per 720 deg engine rotation.
Mercedes on the other hand, with their single turbine entry, are maybe trying to bring toghether 2 pulses at the same time, effectively we hear 3 pulses per 720 deg engine rotation, like in a three cylinder engine.
I can't think of another reason why they sound so low pitched.

[WhiteBlue]

Regulations require 2014 engines to have equal cylinder diameter, stroke, volume and shape (circular) with only three connecting rod bearing journals. How can you design an asymmetric V engine with those rules? Would it make sense to have one complete bank offset?

[321apex]

The key to winning is not always trying to reinvent a new mouse trap, but rather sweat the conventional realm details . This is especially true when you have a new formula with so many unknowns.

If there will be opportunities for "double throw me down" versions of V6 engine, then it will get explored eventually, but all players are smart enough to know that now is not the time to do it. Too many new things got introduced in 2014 and even Mercedes was conservative (from their own perspective) in approaching their ICE.

[ppj13]

To abarth: yes, sound. Now that you mention, "pretty sure" is too much. I'd better say "suspect".

I have a kind of a trained ear, and these things sing aloud. If you miss a fire in 8, it may go unnoticed. But if you fire unevenly all the time (bang-bang, bang-bang, bang-bang...) the music changes. And the renault, turbo hiss apart, is very much like the old V8 screamer.

Sound by itself can be misleading.
Subaru "boxer" passenger car engines are even firing 4 cylinders while they do sound quite different than an in-line 4. What would your "trained ear" likely suspect ?

That the engine is firing all cylinders in one bank and then all in the other?

Crossplane V8 also have even firing. I know even or odd firing is not the only thing that changes the sound. The merc engine has single turbine inlet, too.

But yeah, perhaps I trust too much on sound alone. In some decades maybe we find out a picture of an "old" 2014 f1 crankshaft and then we will say "oh, see. Trained ear my ass"

edit: sorry, I didn't see all posts in between 321apex and me. Most of this one is already said.

[ringo]

Same way you lubricate an engine with a crankshaft. You make oil pass from crankshaft to conrod.

Looking at the above image with the bearing of one con rod in the side of another, can you illustrate the oil pass for me. Thanks. And also say why this can apply to an F1 engine.

[ppj13]

Ringo, same way you pass oil from block to crankshaft. Simple drill holes connecting both main and slave housings and bearings with grooves, I suppose. Do you see any problem with it?

It applies when you want to attach both banks at different crankshaft angular positions (not shared) in order to modify the firing intervals and you are forced by regs to use a single (unsplit) journal per pair of conrods. Eg, in 90ºV engines, using 30 deg spacing will enable 120º firing intervals (regular).

Some engine builders I know will chop one arm off themselves before building a race engine with uneven firing. Using slightly creative solutions to achieve regular firing intervals (and therefore reuse all previous knowledge about vibrations in crankshaft and tranny and tyres and all) seems the "conservative" way to go to me.

[Abarth]

[...]Some engine builders I know will chop one arm off themselves before building a race engine with uneven firing. [...]

Almost none of the V10 or V12 race engines with these bank angles had even firing over all cylinders, as well as the turbo's in the 80ies.
These engines shared a common crank pin, no offset, because of weight, and stability. Look up for a document "10 Years of BMW F1 Engines", link has been published here several times methinks.

BUT, and this is / was important, per cylinder bank they had even firing intervals, to allow the resonance in the exhaust manifold to help gas exchange and therefore power.
That's the reason that they do not use crossplane crankshafts in 90deg V8 race engines, as this would give uneven firing per each bank (overall its even, and in road cars common).

[ringo]

Ringo, same way you pass oil from block to crankshaft. Simple drill holes connecting both main and slave housings and bearings with grooves, I suppose. Do you see any problem with it?

It applies when you want to attach both banks at different crankshaft angular positions (not shared) in order to modify the firing intervals and you are forced by regs to use a single (unsplit) journal per pair of conrods. Eg, in 90ºV engines, using 30 deg spacing will enable 120º firing intervals (regular).

Some engine builders I know will chop one arm off themselves before building a race engine with uneven firing. Using slightly creative solutions to achieve regular firing intervals (and therefore reuse all previous knowledge about vibrations in crankshaft and tranny and tyres and all) seems the "conservative" way to go to me.

I don't see how you are going to drill one con rod in the above example. So I was asking you how you would apply this to a high speed engine like an F1 engine.

[321apex]

Some engine builders I know will chop one arm off themselves before building a race engine with uneven firing. Using slightly creative solutions to achieve regular firing intervals (and therefore reuse all previous knowledge about vibrations in crankshaft and tranny and tyres and all) seems the "conservative" way to go to me.

From my experience, engine builders usually use standard aftermarket sourced parts and as such do not redesign engines. Their input as far as even or odd firing goes is virtually non existent due primarily to the parts sourcing. Aftermarket parts are produced according to conventional OEM based designs.

Cranks, cams, blocks do not offer much of an option in altering the cylinder firing spacing to attain the odd firing effect.

Perhaps you meant - BALANCE of engines.

[Owen.C93]

I don't know whether you want this type of content here. But here's the Merc engine showing the compact "log style" exhaust and how the air goes through the V into the compressor. The Renault runs it's MGU-H in the V and routes it's intake over the airbox and then normal to the compressor. Not sure on the ferrari but here's a link to their up and over 3 into 1 into 1 exhaust. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BiomjgTCIAEcNts.jpg

[ppj13]

To ringo and apex and others:

My point is that I think renault is using split pins or funny conrods or funny crankshaft position in relation to the Vee to achieve regular firing intervals, while mercedes is probably doing a big bang engine, using those same tricks or simply building the crankshaft with unconventional throws distribution.

Your point is that with sound alone we don't know that much, and that the methods available to alter firing intervals are very difficult to use in F1, and the goal not so important.

I don't agree. But I say maybe you are indeed right and I'm wrong, it was just speculation, I don't really know! Time will tell.

Regards,

[321apex]

To ringo and apex and others:

My point is that I think renault is using split pins or funny conrods or funny crankshaft position in relation to the Vee to achieve regular firing intervals, while mercedes is probably doing a big bang engine, using those same tricks or simply building the crankshaft with unconventional throws distribution.

Your point is that with sound alone we don't know that much, and that the methods available to alter firing intervals are very difficult to use in F1, and the goal not so important.

I don't agree. But I say maybe you are indeed right and I'm wrong, it was just speculation, I don't really know! Time will tell.

Regards,

If your guide is just the sound, then you may be misguided. Technical aspects of racing engines can be complex and while not knowing, it is tempting to dream up all sorts of scenarios, while just often obscure basics are at play.

[Blackout]

I don't know whether you want this type of content here. But here's the Merc engine showing the compact "log style" exhaust and how the air goes through the V into the compressor. The Renault runs it's MGU-H in the V and routes it's intake over the airbox and then normal to the compressor. Not sure on the ferrari but here's a link to their up and over 3 into 1 into 1 exhaust. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BiomjgTCIAEcNts.jpg
http://www.omnicorse.it/img/articoli/ev ... rcedes.jpg

Never seen an F1 car with a 'log' type manifold before (some early race cars of the 40's and 50's had those AFAIK!)
It's a very intereting solution aero-wise.

[thedutchguy]

Some engine/gearing related observations from watching the on-board channel during most of FP2 this morning.

Top speed at the end of the straight is about 305 kmh for the fastest cars.

The Ferrari engines sound strange from on-board. Lots of (turbo?) hissing going on, both on acceleration and during braking. Not a pleasant sound to listen to. Mercedes sounds crisper and actually quite nice, Renault quite OK

There appears to be a LOT of difference in gearing between the teams. Most of them run more or less linear gearing, but some team appear to have a very long 7th gear. Also the RPM at which teams run on when on the pit limiter in 1st gear differs a lot. Williams runs at about 7000 rpm on the pit limiter, whereas I've seen others run as high as 9000+.

All teams seem to be running their engines up to about 11500 - 12000 rpm at the moment. Perhaps they'll get up higher during qualifying?[/list]

Some observations per team:

WILLIAMS runs quite short gearing. Easily gets into 8th gear on the straight.
MERCEDES: longer gearing, does not seem to go up to 8th gear on the straight, certainly not during Rosberg's longer runs
LOTUS: Very short gearing. The lotus gets into 8th gear even on some of the shorter straights. Interesting to see how they'll manage on faster tracks like China.
RED BULL appears to be geared quite short up to 6th, with a longer 7th and 8th.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcMawL4278Q[/youtube]
(Note that the onscreen graphics don't seem to highlight 8th gear, even though some cars clearly use it).