2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

[ppj13]

Which technology is that sensor using?

What Horner claims could be true, we all know fluid flow meters in racing were in fact never very repetitive, not even for integration, let alone instantaneous readings. Everyone that I know uses the "calculated" fuel flow (linear with the accumulated injection time, mostly) in pro racing (WRC, F3, motoGP...) and the error is not greater than 1% over long periods of time, as long as injectors and fuel pressure are ok.

I also thought from day 1 this is a huge mistake in the regulations. I do not imagine the end of the story, apart from duplicating or triplicating the sensor and assuming the random part of it as part of the game. Still a terrible system, though.

[R_Redding]

The fuel flow sensor is apparently calibrated twice.. Once by the manufacturer Gill Sensors..

The ones that pass initial calibration are then passed to Capricorn to be calibrated again.

even so.. there wwere scare stories in January about them.


http://grandprix247.com/2014/01/10/fia- ... s-in-2014/

Its such a shame for Ricciardo .. he must be gutted now.

Rob

[ppj13]

....The current power units, on the other hand, have a much wider power-band, and the cars have less downforce on the drive wheels. So, naturally, drivers have to be a bit more delicate when applying the throttle....

I don't agree with your view. I think it is the high torque that the turbo engines produce at relatively low revs that make the drivers break traction.

Ahhhhh, torque, power......they're all interchangeable terms, aren't they?

Oh, oh.

I know that everyone has his own opinion about this, and normally nobody swaps teams ever in his lifetime (although only one vision of it is really "true"). But millions of post have been written and threads have been derailed countless times around this topic!

So, Please, please, start a new thread or at least keep it civilized

Regards,

[munudeges]

Keep it civilised? You're either wrong or you're not. Talking about torque when you mean power is not an opinion. It's simply wrong.

"We believed in our reading, otherwise you are in a situation where you are reducing significant amounts of power with the engine, when we believed we fully comply with the regulations. If we end up with that situation, depending on the calibration of your sensor, the plus and minus, it will dictate quite simply who is competitive and who isn’t."

There you have it and that will set the tone for the rest of this season.

[ppj13]

The fuel flow sensor is apparently calibrated twice.. Once by the manufacturer Gill Sensors..

The ones that pass initial calibration are then passed to Capricorn to be calibrated again.

even so.. there wwere scare stories in January about them.


http://grandprix247.com/2014/01/10/fia- ... s-in-2014/

Its such a shame for Ricciardo .. he must be gutted now.

Rob

Ultrasonic, then.

PITA.

[Phillyred]

So, am I foolish to assume that increasing peak fuel flow at any given moment should increase power/output from the engine? If so, I would think any team choosing to do so is at risk of pushing their engine's theoretical fuel efficiency to the brink of running out of fuel during the race and makes it "fair." I guess my point is, since you can only use 100kg of fuel during the race who cares how you choose to use it? I know there are rules governing this, but what advantage are they afraid a team might gain? If a certain engine manufacturer is better with fuel efficiency so be it.. too bad so sad for the other competitors.. Sorry if my comments are naive.

[langwadt]

Does anyone know what Ferrari are doing with their gearbox? You cannot hear any throttle blipping on downshits when your trackside.

It's been discussed before, apparently they use the MGU-K instead of the ICE to hit the right RPMs for the downshifts

I like that idea.
It would certainly be more fuel efficient and more precise in rpm targeting to utilize the MGU-K drive instead of throttle blips. I suppose Ferrari will be safe for the remainder of the season from being copied with regards to this technical functionality of their power unit.

It will use less fuel but more battery, so I'm not sure much is gained, but I can easily see that it would be much better for getting the brake-by-wire, harvesting and gear changes to be drivable. The MGU-K can be controlled much more precise than the ICE and I'd think you can combine it all into a simpler control loop with out the ICE in the mix

[ppj13]

The fuel flow sensor is apparently calibrated twice.. Once by the manufacturer Gill Sensors..

The ones that pass initial calibration are then passed to Capricorn to be calibrated again.

even so.. there wwere scare stories in January about them.


http://grandprix247.com/2014/01/10/fia- ... s-in-2014/

Its such a shame for Ricciardo .. he must be gutted now.

Rob

Ultrasonic, then.

PITA.

To me, it is not easy to calibrate it unless the fuel is homogeneous between teams and races, which I understand it isn't. Reading is strongly dependent on viscosity and viscosity varies strongly with temperature when using different additives to the fuel.

Vibations could also be a problem, bubbles, particles...

Even in the industry i've seen problems with these sensors, an many companies reverting to venturi solutions to mix chemicals.

[ppj13]

So, am I foolish to assume that increasing peak fuel flow at any given moment should increase power/output from the engine? If so, I would think any team choosing to do so is at risk of pushing their engine's theoretical fuel efficiency to the brink of running out of fuel during the race and makes it "fair." I guess my point is, since you can only use 100kg of fuel during the race who cares how you choose to use it? I know there are rules governing this, but what advantage are they afraid a team might gain? If a certain engine manufacturer is better with fuel efficiency so be it.. too bad so sad for the other competitors.. Sorry if my comments are naive.

If they didn't limit fuel flow, complete race distance will be covered in slightly less time, but qualy times would be 30s faster and engines would give 1200HP and cost a ton of money.

Nobody knows exactly what's the logic behind FIA rules, though. Safety? Cost? Enviroment? pff.

[tok-tokkie]

If they didn't limit the maximum fuel flow rate then, since there is unlimited 'blowing' of the engine, overtaking would cause ridiculous speeds from both cars. The fuel rate has to be limited to something realistic.

[ppj13]

Yeah, that too.

Why not limit air flow like everywhere else? I don't know.

To be able to show amazing fuel efficiency figures, perhaps.

[WhiteBlue]

To me, it is not easy to calibrate it unless the fuel is homogeneous between teams and races, which I understand it isn't. Reading is strongly dependent on viscosity and viscosity varies strongly with temperature when using different additives to the fuel. ...

That should not be the problem. The teams have to supply viscosity curves and all kind of data for every fuel they take to races. So the sensor can be adjusted for the physical propoerties of the fuel. It appears that those sensors still have electronic glitches. To be fair the problem cold also be in the communication chain when the values are communicated upstream through various systems to the FiA server.

[langwadt]

Yeah, that too.

Why not limit air flow like everywhere else? I don't know.

To be able to show amazing fuel efficiency figures, perhaps.

fuel efficiency is something that can benefit us all and the manufacturers like to brag about, With the flow limit it is
also what makes you win so we'll have thousands of the best engineers with budgets in hundreds of millions and bragging
rights on the line making engines more efficient engines.

[munudeges]

That should not be the problem. The teams have to supply viscosity curves and all kind of data for every fuel they take to races. So the sensor can be adjusted for the physical propoerties of the fuel.

Ahh yes, lets apply more variables, more offsets, more margins and more unknown unknowns to a problem that can never be solved. This is so silly it's impossible to know where to start and I've split my sides reading it.

Measuring flow, even if you have a uniform liquid, is impossible to measure to the accuracy you need here. Even very small differences between cars represent a not insignificant amount of available power and teams spend a great deal of money for hundredths of a second gains.

Clearly they're going to concentrate their efforts in an area of the regulations they can drive a coach, horses and an eighteen wheeler through, aren't they?

[WhiteBlue]

Sounds like a bit of an exageration to me. It is early days. Give them some weeks to fix teething problems that natiurally occur with all new technology. It is probably a benefit that Red Bull made an appeal. It means the issue has to go before a tribunal and we will learn more hard facts about the problem. That is always better than speculation.