2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

[Cold Fussion]

So, am I foolish to assume that increasing peak fuel flow at any given moment should increase power/output from the engine? If so, I would think any team choosing to do so is at risk of pushing their engine's theoretical fuel efficiency to the brink of running out of fuel during the race and makes it "fair." I guess my point is, since you can only use 100kg of fuel during the race who cares how you choose to use it? I know there are rules governing this, but what advantage are they afraid a team might gain? If a certain engine manufacturer is better with fuel efficiency so be it.. too bad so sad for the other competitors.. Sorry if my comments are naive.

Conceptually it's better because all power gains come from engine efficiency gains
, however it may very well turn out that the measuring technology isn't up to the task, time will tell if that is the case or not.

[agip]

Short quesion:

What would be the downside of letting the teams use 100kg in the race and just that? Without the fuel-flow sensors.

[Holm86]

Short quesion:

What would be the downside of letting the teams use 100kg in the race and just that? Without the fuel-flow sensors.

Its been mentioned many times. If the fuel flow was unregulated the cars could have 1200 hp a few laps and then 200 the next few laps. This would be way too inconsistent and engines would be even more expensive and less efficient.

The fuel-flow limit is set to have somewhat equal power in all cars. And the fuel flow limit is what makes F1 relate more to roadcars as it rewards engine efficiency. Efficiency which could be translated directly into modern roadcar engines.

The 100kg maximum fuel load is what is supposed to give F1 the "green" image. This prevents fuel to be used for any other things than to propel the car. No fuel dumping into the exhaust for aero benefit or to keep the turbo spinning.

[Pup]

Don't shoot the messenger...

Before travelling to Melbourne, team chairman Niki Lauda revealed that the basic 1.6 litre Mercedes unit is producing “about 580hp.” As it is known that the sophisticated energy-recovery or ‘ERS’ side adds 160hp to the equation, then Mercedes’ 2014 ‘power unit’ equates to about 740hp at present.

However, the German newspaper Bild reports that Mercedes’ competition believes the ‘monster’ Mercedes unit is actually producing “up to 900 horse power” when operating at full tilt. Asked about the 740 versus 900 figures, Renault-powered Red Bull’s Dr Helmut Marko said: “For sure the engine has more power than they are saying.”

The Austrian was speaking on Saturday, where despite Daniel Ricciardo’s surprising feat of splitting the two Mercedes on the grid, world champion Sebastian Vettel failed even to make the top ten.

“We tried some new software but it did not work,” said Marko. “Mercedes is having no problems with the engine and has power in excess. They are able to do a strategic race.”

[Blackout]

Marko said he believes Merc ''will have 810ps soon'' accordnig to the bild article. I dont know where those 900ps come from...
The RedBulletin has written last week AFAIR that max power for RBR is 800ps...

[Holm86]

Don't shoot the messenger...

Before travelling to Melbourne, team chairman Niki Lauda revealed that the basic 1.6 litre Mercedes unit is producing “about 580hp.” As it is known that the sophisticated energy-recovery or ‘ERS’ side adds 160hp to the equation, then Mercedes’ 2014 ‘power unit’ equates to about 740hp at present.

However, the German newspaper Bild reports that Mercedes’ competition believes the ‘monster’ Mercedes unit is actually producing “up to 900 horse power” when operating at full tilt. Asked about the 740 versus 900 figures, Renault-powered Red Bull’s Dr Helmut Marko said: “For sure the engine has more power than they are saying.”

The Austrian was speaking on Saturday, where despite Daniel Ricciardo’s surprising feat of splitting the two Mercedes on the grid, world champion Sebastian Vettel failed even to make the top ten.

“We tried some new software but it did not work,” said Marko. “Mercedes is having no problems with the engine and has power in excess. They are able to do a strategic race.”

These claims are made from people having no technical knowledge what so ever!! And its pretty annoying they just write BS like this.

900 hp would mean 740 hp from the ICE alone. Fast calculations tells that this needs a thermal efficiency of 43% with a fuel energy density of 46MJ / KG. This to me seems impossible.

[321apex]

Liquid flow rate measurement is difficult to do accurately even in laboratory conditions.
In F1 you have an on board task to accurately measure the fuel flow under the conditions of vibration and installation deviation from team to team. On top of that, in flow rate measurements the fluid density and viscosity has to be calibrated into the instrument for it to indicate accurately. Temperature significantly affects viscosity and plays havoc with accuracy.
We know, that the fuels used in F1 vary in physical properties.
At best you may still get 0.5-2.0% error, which in case of F1 engine would proportionally translate into power gains or losses.

It is idiotic in my view, to base KEY technical regulation on instruments whose measuring robustness can not be assured in it's intended environment. I presume, that the vendor who got the deal to supply these things did a song and dance and effectively misled the rule makers at FIA of true performance of these devices. Too bad these people don't understand the engineering side and practical implications of their regulations.

Having said that, I believe rules are to be respected and FIA much to my chagrin had no choice but to DQ Ricciardo. My prediction is that the FFR (fuel flow rate) measurement will be a monster this year and a nail in a coffin of F1 before they realize the damage these dumb rules are doing to the business of F1. I was happy to see Ricc on podium and now I am pissed.

Consequently, I doubt if FIA can stand DQ-ing competitors very long for FFR infraction. Instead they may start pretending they don't see the problem until some team starts court action.

[kooleracer]

Don't shoot the messenger...

Before travelling to Melbourne, team chairman Niki Lauda revealed that the basic 1.6 litre Mercedes unit is producing “about 580hp.” As it is known that the sophisticated energy-recovery or ‘ERS’ side adds 160hp to the equation, then Mercedes’ 2014 ‘power unit’ equates to about 740hp at present.

However, the German newspaper Bild reports that Mercedes’ competition believes the ‘monster’ Mercedes unit is actually producing “up to 900 horse power” when operating at full tilt. Asked about the 740 versus 900 figures, Renault-powered Red Bull’s Dr Helmut Marko said: “For sure the engine has more power than they are saying.”

The Austrian was speaking on Saturday, where despite Daniel Ricciardo’s surprising feat of splitting the two Mercedes on the grid, world champion Sebastian Vettel failed even to make the top ten.

“We tried some new software but it did not work,” said Marko. “Mercedes is having no problems with the engine and has power in excess. They are able to do a strategic race.”

These claims are made from people having no technical knowledge what so ever!! And its pretty annoying they just write BS like this.

900 hp would mean 740 hp from the ICE alone. Fast calculations tells that this needs a thermal efficiency of 43% with a fuel energy density of 46MJ / KG. This to me seems impossible.

I have no technical background but, when you say its impossible. Do you mean theoretically or physically? This is the first time they have focused on efficiency in F1. Also the turbo (according the renault spec the max boost pressure would be around 3.5) making it and the direct injecting technology could, that not changes things?

[Holm86]

These claims are made from people having no technical knowledge what so ever!! And its pretty annoying they just write BS like this.

900 hp would mean 740 hp from the ICE alone. Fast calculations tells that this needs a thermal efficiency of 43% with a fuel energy density of 46MJ / KG. This to me seems impossible.

I have no technical background but, when you say its impossible. Do you mean theoretically or physically? This is the first time they have focused on efficiency in F1. Also the turbo and the direct injecting technology could, that not changes things?

I don't mean its impossible as in it can never be done. I just feel like its impossible to take such a huge step in such short time. Gasoline engines have had a thermal efficiency of around 30% for ages. Turbo's, downsizing and direct injection will of course help the efficiency but to go from around 30% to 43% is a giant step. Even the 35% TE needed to create the 600 hp as many here sees as a realistic number is a pretty good improvement.

[321apex]

I don't mean its impossible as in it can never be done. I just feel like its impossible to take such a huge step in such short time. Gasoline engines have had a thermal efficiency of around 30% for ages. Turbo's, downsizing and direct injection will of course help the efficiency but to go from around 30% to 43% is a giant step. Even the 35% TE needed to create the 600 hp as many here sees as a realistic number is a pretty good improvement.

I concur with that!
Would add that Horner's remarks of MB delivering 720hp was more for political reasons to light fire under RN. The history of motor racing is lined with instances of car/chassis makers blaming the engine guys and vice versa for their relative lack of performance. When they are winning everyone is happy, but when they don't, the blame game starts.

I still would argue, that 580HP Niki Lauda talked about is on the high end at the 100kg/h FFR (fuel flow rate). It is also evident, that just as I expected, the RPM's don't go much higher than 12500 at peaks.

[kooleracer]

These claims are made from people having no technical knowledge what so ever!! And its pretty annoying they just write BS like this.

900 hp would mean 740 hp from the ICE alone. Fast calculations tells that this needs a thermal efficiency of 43% with a fuel energy density of 46MJ / KG. This to me seems impossible.

I have no technical background but, when you say its impossible. Do you mean theoretically or physically? This is the first time they have focused on efficiency in F1. Also the turbo and the direct injecting technology could, that not changes things?

I don't mean its impossible as in it can never be done. I just feel like its impossible to take such a huge step in such short time. Gasoline engines have had a thermal efficiency of around 30% for ages. Turbo's, downsizing and direct injection will of course help the efficiency but to go from around 30% to 43% is a giant step. Even the 35% TE needed to create the 600 hp as many here sees as a realistic number is a pretty good improvement.

But the V8 is from 2006 and also was effectively a castrated V10. We are now almost 8 year further. Also with the Turbo always spinning because of the MGU-H isn't that a big improvement? ( i dont believe this engines makes 740 without the electrical part. But 640-660 isn't that possible? Because i find it hard to believe that a AMG A45 makes 350 out of a 2.0 four cylinder and that thoroughbred F1 engine would not make more than 600hp. I know that these papers spreading these rumors aren't always accurate. But those same papers have been right for more then a year about the engine advantage Mercedes would have and we now can see that they were right on that one. So maybe there is some truth in those reports.

[321apex]

Because i find it hard to believe that a AMG A45 makes 350 out of a 2.0 four cylinder and that thoroughbred F1 engine would not make more than 600hp. I know that these papers spreading these rumors aren't always accurate. But those same papers have been right for more then a year about the engine advantage Mercedes would have and we know can see that they were right on that one. So maybe there is some truth in those reports.

This 1.6L can even make 1500hp if you gave it enough fuel.
It's the fuel flow rate limit that puts the ceiling on power output, which is around 550hp in my view.

I've said it at other threads back in January, that most likely MB outspent everyone on the engine. In a technological war, money buys top talent engineers, test benches, time to test, scenarios A, B, C.... Z. Just look at the log exhaust manifold MB uses. I for one would have laughed at the idea of it before I saw it. Well this seemingly non-starter solution they made it to work and surpass all others. Wow!

I am sure there are many other nuggets hidden deeper, which MB invented thru having greater resources.

[kooleracer]

Because i find it hard to believe that a AMG A45 makes 350 out of a 2.0 four cylinder and that thoroughbred F1 engine would not make more than 600hp. I know that these papers spreading these rumors aren't always accurate. But those same papers have been right for more then a year about the engine advantage Mercedes would have and we know can see that they were right on that one. So maybe there is some truth in those reports.

This 1.6L can even make 1500hp if you gave it enough fuel.
It's the fuel flow rate limit that puts the ceiling on power output, which is around 550hp in my view.

I've said it at other threads back in January, that most likely MB outspent everyone on the engine. In a technological war, money buys top talent engineers, test benches, time to test, scenarios A, B, C.... Z. Just look at the log exhaust manifold MB uses. I for one would have laughed at the idea of it before I saw it. Well this seemingly non-starter solution they made it to work and surpass all others. Wow!

I am sure there are many other nuggets hidden deeper, which MB invented thru having greater resources.

550hp would mean we are down on power compared to the V8 which had 760-780. I don't think Ferrari would settle for such a dire engine formula. The goals was always less fuel same power. So the ICE has to produce in the region of 600+ in my view. Otherwise the hole efficiency story is bunch of crap, because going slower with less fuel is not a challenge that manufacturer's would spend millions on to be frank. Also Renault put in their spec sheet 600hp form the ICE and we all know those numbers are always lower then reality.

[Holm86]

But the V8 is from 2006 and also was effectively a castrated V10. We are now almost 8 year further. Also with the Turbo always spinning because of the MGU-H isn't that a big improvement? ( i dont believe this engines makes 740 without the electrical part. But 640-660 isn't that possible? Because i find it hard to believe that a AMG A45 makes 350 out of a 2.0 four cylinder and that thoroughbred F1 engine would not make more than 600hp. I know that these papers spreading these rumors aren't always accurate. But those same papers have been right for more then a year about the engine advantage Mercedes would have and we know can see that they were right on that one. So maybe there is some truth in those reports.

How much power Mercedes is making from their 2.0 four cylinder has zero to do with efficiency. I know you said you have no technical background but you need to understand that that engine is not restricted in any ways. In a four cylinder 2.0 engine like in the A45 creating huge horsepower figures is not difficult. Street tuners have reached far beyond 345hp in 2.0 engines. That's because you can always add more fuel and air which is what creates the power. What Mercedes has achieved with the A45 engines is a great step in material technology because they can now create so much power reliably.

In a fuel-flow regulated formula as F1 you can't just pump in more fuel and air to create more horsepower. So you need to get as much power out of the fuel you are given which means to get more power you need to increase the thermal efficiency of the engine.

Typically fuel has a energy density of 46 mega joules per kilogram. That's 46.000.000 joules / kg. The fuel-flow is capped at 100kg/h or 100.000g / 60 / 60 = 27,77 grams per second.

And to calculate the energy density into grams as well: 46.000.000 j/kg / 1000 = 46.000 j/g.

One watt is = one joule per second. So the maximum amount of energy going into these engines are 27,77 g/s x 46.000 j/g = 1277420 watt.

1277420 watt / 1000 = 1277,42 Kw.

But a gasoline engine is not 100% efficient. Far from it. Normal is about 32% so lets calculate a bit optimistic and say 35%.

1277,42 Kw x 0,35 = 447,1 Kw. So the power output of engine is 447,1 Kw or 447,1 Kw x 1,34 = 599,1 hp.

So you see by increasing the efficiency you get more power. Not like on street cars like the A45 AMG where you can just add more fuel and boost to get more horsepower.

[kooleracer]

But the V8 is from 2006 and also was effectively a castrated V10. We are now almost 8 year further. Also with the Turbo always spinning because of the MGU-H isn't that a big improvement? ( i dont believe this engines makes 740 without the electrical part. But 640-660 isn't that possible? Because i find it hard to believe that a AMG A45 makes 350 out of a 2.0 four cylinder and that thoroughbred F1 engine would not make more than 600hp. I know that these papers spreading these rumors aren't always accurate. But those same papers have been right for more then a year about the engine advantage Mercedes would have and we know can see that they were right on that one. So maybe there is some truth in those reports.

How much power Mercedes is making from their 2.0 four cylinder has zero to do with efficiency. I know you said you have no technical background but you need to understand that that engine is not restricted in any ways. In a four cylinder 2.0 engine like in the A45 creating huge horsepower figures is not difficult. Street tuners have reached far beyond 345hp in 2.0 engines. That's because you can always add more fuel and air which is what creates the power. What Mercedes has achieved with the A45 engines is a great step in material technology because they can now create so much power reliably.

In a fuel-flow regulated formula as F1 you can't just pump in more fuel and air to create more horsepower. So you need to get as much power out of the fuel you are given which means to get more power you need to increase the thermal efficiency of the engine.

Typically fuel has a energy density of 46 mega joules per kilogram. That's 46.000.000 joules / kg. The fuel-flow is capped at 100kg/h or 100.000g / 60 / 60 = 27,77 grams per second.

And to calculate the energy density into grams as well: 46.000.000 j/kg / 1000 = 46.000 j/g.

One watt is = one joule per second. So the maximum amount of energy going into these engines are 27,77 g/s x 46.000 j/g = 1277420 watt.

1277420 watt / 1000 = 1277,42 Kw.

But a gasoline engine is not 100% efficient. Far from it. Normal is about 32% so lets calculate a bit optimistic and say 35%.

1277,42 Kw x 0,35 = 447,1 Kw. So the power output of engine is 447,1 Kw or 447,1 Kw x 1,34 = 599,1 hp.

So you see by increasing the efficiency you get more power. Not like on street cars like the A45 AMG where you can just add more fuel and boost to get more horsepower.

How about the turbo, you know have calculated it without the turbo? Doesn't the 500bar GDI has an influence? type of gasoline fuel ( Shell did a lot of research "Horse power" documentary)? couldn't 38% TE be possible?