Driving in the rain

Here are our CFD links and discussions about aerodynamics, suspension, driver safety and tyres. Please stick to F1 on this forum.
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vis
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Joined: 16 Jun 2006, 14:56
Location: Monza

Driving in the rain

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I think that the rolling resistance of a tire is less in rain condition than when it's dry.
But what about air resistance (drag) in rain? It is more or less than dry condition?

In other words, would be smart trying to get a top speed record in rainy conditions (because of the decreasing tire rolling resistance) or rain drops/water spray creates some sort of drag negating any advantage?

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ds.raikkonen
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Joined: 04 Apr 2007, 08:11

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yes..the rolling resistance of tyres is less in wet conditions...but its too less..i.e. traction is low...thats why cornering speeds are low during wet races..during dry conditions the slicks stick to the race tracks like leeches and stop the car from skidding away...hence higher cornering speeds.
as for the drag, it varies...coz during a wet race rain drops also cause drag along with air....during overtaking if the driver comes in the slipstream of the car in front,drag is less...but as soon as he changes path for o.t.,the heavy drag might cause him to slow down!! instead of speeding up
“Speed has never killed anyone. Suddenly becoming stationary...that’s what gets you.” - JC

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vis
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Joined: 16 Jun 2006, 14:56
Location: Monza

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Of course I did not consider cornering speed issues, only straight line drag.
So rain drops increase drag?

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Ciro Pabón
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Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

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They have to. They increase the average density of air. If you go into that kind of detail, they also diminish the amount of oxygen available to the engine and must increase latent heat of air, so engine power must be reduced (I don't have numbers on that, except for latent heat: Oxygen/Nitrogen is around 200, Water is 2300).

Friction can be cut in half, according to AASHTO, so you'll need a longer straight to reach the same speed.

How could the rolling resistance be less in rain? Some work must be done to "split" and throw away the water... I quote (for passenger cars) the study on "Rolling resistance, fuel consumption" from the Danish Vejdirektoratet (Highway Secretary):

http://www.vejdirektoratet.dk/publikati ... pter07.htm
Generally the presence of water or snow on a road increases the rolling resistance and therefore the fuel consumption. On porous pavements the rain water is drained away from the road surface leaving it dry for longer periods than dense pavements. By this, porous pavements have a positive effect on rolling resistance and by this on reduced fuel consumption.
Where did you get the information on less resistance under rain? I'd be thankful for that link or reference.

BTW, those that have read opinions in this forum by Mikey_s and some others (ehem...) on porous pavements, take note that the effect of the kind of surface on rolling resistance can reach 10%, according to the same source, hence it has the same effect on gas consumption and pollution. (That was an ad... courtesy of the "Tree huggers for better pavements in Formula One " ;)).
Ciro

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jddh1
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Joined: 29 Jan 2007, 05:30
Location: New York City

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remember the brazilian gp, the one that fisico won after review? here's a little reminder...

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/445702/fo ... _3_brazil/

enjoy!

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Tom
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Joined: 13 Jan 2006, 00:24
Location: Bicester

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Another thing about aerodynamics in the wet, unlike air, water cannot be compressed so it behaves very differently going over wings, through air ducts and under the floor.
Murphy's 9th Law of Technology:
Tell a man there are 300 million stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch to be sure.

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ds.raikkonen
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Joined: 04 Apr 2007, 08:11

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yeah i was thinking of the same thing...some work has to be done to push water away from the track by the tyres to achieve grip...so rolling res shud inc...i stand corrected...
“Speed has never killed anyone. Suddenly becoming stationary...that’s what gets you.” - JC

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vis
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Joined: 16 Jun 2006, 14:56
Location: Monza

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Ciro Pabón wrote: Friction can be cut in half, according to AASHTO, so you'll need a longer straight to reach the same speed.

Where did you get the information on less resistance under rain? I'd be thankful for that link or reference.
I don't get this point: do you mean less traction?
I'm talking in general, not only about powerful race cars!

Other point: so, if I well understood, you say that (in wet condition) anti water-spray tarmac (porous) has less rolling resistance than normal tarmac, because it remains dryer. I also think that in dry conditions is the opposite.

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vyselegend
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Joined: 20 Feb 2006, 17:05
Location: Paris, France

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jddh1 wrote:remember the brazilian gp, the one that fisico won after review? here's a little reminder...

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/445702/fo ... _3_brazil/

enjoy!
Nice vid :D

Thanks mate! you should post it in the "new video" topic :wink:

monkeyboy1976
monkeyboy1976
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Joined: 12 Jan 2006, 17:00
Location: Midlands, UK

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jddh1 wrote:remember the brazilian gp, the one that fisico won after review? here's a little reminder...

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/445702/fo ... _3_brazil/

enjoy!
Wow. Crazy day that one. It's interesting to see Alonso taking himself out on Webbo's tyre. I had forgotten about that. I remember thinking then that he was too much of a hot headed youngster to ever go on to great things. Shows how much I know. He has matured greatly and doubt that sort of thing wouldn't happen again now.

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Ciro Pabón
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Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

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vis wrote:... I don't get this point: do you mean less traction?
...

Other point: so, if I well understood, you say that (in wet condition) anti water-spray tarmac (porous) has less rolling resistance than normal tarmac, because it remains dryer. I also think that in dry conditions is the opposite.
Yes, when I said friction is half, I'm referring to the coefficient of friction (f or mu, where I live). As you surely know, the coefficient of friction, multiplied by the weight of the car gives you the amount of traction you can develop. A low coefficient of friction is what makes a car slip in the rain. That is why you have a lower MU under rain.

Rolling resistance is the resistance to advance (Cr where I live). The coefficient of rolling resistance, when multiplied by the weight of vehicle, gives you the force, working against you moving, that is, the force that finally stops the car if you're coasting: part of it is developed on the wheel bearings and drivetrain, part from the flexure of the tyre and part of it on the interface between tyre and tarmac. This last part (microslipping) is what makes you having a higher CR under rain.
"The measured rolling resistance arises from hysteresis losses in the sidewall and treadband material, which experiences a deformation cycle every tyre revolution. There is an additional small loss (approximately 10% of the total) due to micro-slip in the contact between the tyre and the test surface."

...

"During stop-and-go city driving, it's estimated that overcoming inertia is responsible for about 35% of the vehicle's resistance. Driveline friction is about 45%; air drag is about 5% and tire rolling resistance is about 15%."

...

"Overcoming inertia no longer plays an appreciable role in the vehicle's resistance during steady speed highway driving. For those conditions it is estimated that driveline friction is about 15%; air drag is about 60% and tire rolling resistance represent about 25%."

-- Laboratory Measurement of Rolling Resistance in Truck Tyres under Dynamic Vertical Load, Popov et al. --
What influences more the rolling resistance on highways (and is under your control) is the proper inflation of tyres and air drag, so, if you wish to save gas, check the tyre pressure and don't speed. As drag increases to the square of speed, a speed limit saves gas (a lot!), besides lives. That is one of the reasons for the trend of lower allowed speeds on highways in Europe.

On cities, inertia and drivetrain become important: try to follow the traffic if you wish to save gas, "guess" or learn the green cycles of traffic lights and coast in neutral as much as you can: you will be surprised at how high the inertia of your car is if you try it. If you follow "blindly" the movement of the car ahead in a traffic jam, you can increase gas expenditure by 20%! Not to mention pollutants...

You can save easily 10% of gas on average, if you drive smartly.

About porous tarmacs having greater rolling resistance, you're right, but the answer is not simple (sorry for extending, it's Holy Week! :)):

What influences a lot, more than "microtexture" (ondulations under 2 mm, or what diferentiates a porous from a regular pavement), is the "shortwave uneveness", that is, ondulations in the road in the range from half a meter to several meters (by losses in the suspension) and "megatexture", that is, ondulations from several centimeters to half a meter. "Macrotexture", that is, ondulations from a few millimeters to a few centimeters correlate poorly with rolling resistance. "Microtexture" has even less influence on rolling resistance. That is, it is very important to mantain properly the road to save gas. (tell that to Al Gore! ;))

Image

Correlation between shortwave uneveness and megatexture with fuel consumption. Source: Sandberg, Ulf. Road Macro- and Megatexture Influence on Fuel Consumption.
Image

Correlation between macro and microtexture with fuel consumption (it has a worst coefficient of correlation than the previous image) Source: Descornet, Guy. Road-Surface Influence on Tire Rolling Resistance.
Image

American FHWA also concluded that a rough (that is uneven on long waves) can give you 20-30% higher fuel consumption. (Source: Federal Highway Administration Perspectives on Fuel Consumption and Air Contaminant Emission Rates by Highway Vehicles. USDOT.)

In the last graph, IF you design a porous pavement (and thus, the macro and microtexture are used for something useful, which is less mist at high speeds) and the texture is not simply the result of a poor mix design, you contrarrest a little the efect on rolling resistance when it rains. Besides, you normally wish to design a "two layer" porous pavement (more even on the upper layer and more porous in the lower layer) so the holes that drain the water won't clog so quickly with dirt and stop draining the water, which in turn gives you less rolling resistance.

Summary: rain diminishes friction and increases rolling resistance. A porous pavement and proper maintenance of a road dimishes fuel consumption. Check inflation of tyres, coast as much as possible in city traffic and don't overspeed on highways to save fuel.

And finally: when you try to break the trap speed record, do it in dry weather! (which is the question posed by vis).
Ciro

Mikey_s
Mikey_s
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Joined: 21 Dec 2005, 11:06

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Notwithstanding rolling resistance and friction there is one other issue which has not been mentioned yet (unless I missed it) which would sap power from the car; when you see a wet race the cars throw HUGE rooster tails of spray up. It takes energy to move the water - and the volumes shifted by the tyres (to get traction!!) are incredible; road tyres can shift 10 litres of water per second, multiply it by four and the car is losing significant amounts of energy just pumping water into the air... I'm sure that F1 tyres shift more water that road tyres as they travel further in 1s and have downforce to help do so
Mike