Red Bull RB10 Renault

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bhall
bhall
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Re: Red Bull RB10 Renault

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ringo wrote:vortices are in fact not desirable. It's probably the most used word in any aero discussion.

[...]
That's one of the reasons why I think it's a mistake to compare the functionality of the front wing to the rear wing. Not only does the front wing encounter freestream air of very different quality than that encountered by the rear wing, the "trick" use of vortices shed by it to "energize" flow elsewhere, or to do anything else, is simply the result of designers making best use of an inevitable consequence of producing downforce. Otherwise, vortices are just drag, and you want to eliminate their formation as much as possible, especially on the rear wing where there's nothing behind it that can possibly benefit from vortical flow.

EDIT: ...aaaand Lycoming beat me to the punch.

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Chuckjr
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Re: Red Bull RB10 Renault

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Bhallg2k,

Remember last year when Webber's car in Brazil revealed those trick vortices behind the front wing? I'd find and provide a link but my internet is dial up.

In that case with Webber, were not vortices actually used to generate positive force upon the flow of air to and around the side pods? Would this not then be a case where vortices are, in fact, encouraged rather than avoided? If so, would that be an example which is antithetical to some views which state vortices should be mitigated and/or avoided at all costs in F1? It seems that in the case of Newey, he's actually discovered a way of utilizing the seemingly negative properties of vortices to benefit the car?
Watching F1 since 1986.

Lycoming
Lycoming
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Joined: 25 Aug 2011, 22:58

Re: Red Bull RB10 Renault

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Chuckjr wrote:In that case with Webber, were not vortices actually used to generate positive force upon the flow of air to and around the side pods? Would this not then be a case where vortices are, in fact, encouraged rather than avoided?
From where we sit, it's difficult to say whether this is a case where a votex is encouraged rather then avoided, or if it's a case where since you can't avoid it, you put it to good use. Which it is depends on whether the car would be faster or slower if you were able to eliminate that vortex, say by having a full width front wing. Vortices can be used to control flow downstream to gain some performance benefits. Nobody is denying that.
Chuckjr wrote:would that be an example which is antithetical to some views which state vortices should be mitigated and/or avoided at all costs in F1?
Again, that hinges on whether or not it would be better to eliminate that vortex entirely.

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Pierce89
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Re: Red Bull RB10 Renault

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trinidefender wrote:
bhallg2k wrote:When I use the word stall, I always put it within quotation marks because F1 wings rarely truly stall; they just lose efficiency. So, for me, that's what "stall" means. It's an old habit I picked up when talking about intentional reductions in efficiency with a macro term most folks can easily understand. Perhaps it's time for me to drop that habit.

If it's led to any confusion here, I apologize.

My idea is that the slots reduce the efficiency of the wing tips in order to reduce the strength of the resultant vortices and thus reduce the drag penalty such vortices impose.

They're basically an effort to achieve this...

http://i.imgur.com/7o24LFT.jpg

...without reducing wing area.

With regard to the effect of yaw on the efficiency of the front wing, I absolutely agree it has a dramatic impact. In fact, I tend to think front wings create peak downforce only in yaw, because that's generally when downforce is needed most. So, it only makes sense for front wing development to follow along those lines.

I think that's clearly demonstrated in current-generation wings whose most-downforce-producing elements are clustered toward the outside, where uninhibited flow (read: no downstream blockages) can only be achieved when the wheel behind it is turned. (The narrower wings this season have reduced the effectiveness of this philosophy.)

http://i.imgur.com/a9xadJw.jpg
RB9

This isn't really possible for rear wings, though, for two reasons. First: the front wing passes through naked air. That is, it passes through air that has not been conditioned in any way by any aerodynamic devices on the car. That means it can take advantage of any change in direction it imparts on that flow. After all, it is precisely that change of direction that results in the ability of the outside edge of the wing to produce more downforce.

In fact, it's only by changing the direction of air flow that any wing can create any downforce at any time, yanno?

Because rear wings never really encounter naked air flow, at least not in abundance, they tend to be optimized to pass through air flow already conditioned by the front wing and other devices to travel straight back.

And second: rear wing designs created to enhance performance in yaw, like whatever the hell that thing was on the back of the RA108, are banned. So are the devices formerly used to condition air flow over it, e.g "Viking horns."

http://i.imgur.com/01dwsR1.jpg
Honda RA108

And really, those devices didn't "enhance" downforce as much as they attempted to mitigate downforce losses in yaw, because, again, rear wings create peak downforce in straight air flow. All other conditions result in lost efficiency.

And think twice about why McLaren might be willing to suffer a slight increase in drag with aerodynamically-shaped suspension members. If that results in increased efficiency from the diffuser, it's a pretty big net gain, because ground-effect downforce is the single-most efficient form of downforce. The more downforce you get from a diffuser, the less you need to get it from wings. That's a pretty big deal in a fuel-limited formula when drag squares with speed, and the power needed to overcome that drag is cubed at the same time.

Sorry if I'm droning on and on and on... Brevity is a virtue I do not possess. (And it appears I've developed a compulsion to illustrate. Great, just what I needed.)
Go and do some reading on wing vertical wing tips. Do not use the word stall as it is highly misleading regardless of your intentions and in an aerodynamics term completely incorrect.

By higher pressure airflow moving through the slots, below and behind the rear wing, to the lower pressure side on the underside of the wing you decrease the pressure differential between each side of the endplate. By reducing the pressure differential you reduce the size and strength of any vortices that are formed. This will cause a reduction in drag of designed correctly. This is well understood by most people

The part that may confuse some people is that while it reduces drag it may have very small to nil to even positive effect on downforce. I am not saying it will but that in some scenarios it can. Allow me to explain. At the edge of any wing there will be a vortex formed as a result of a pressure differential between two sides of the wing, this is an understood concept. Any wing surface area that lies within this wingtip vortex effectively does not act like a wing anymore and produces no lift or in this case downforce. You are reducing the span of your effective wing. This is one of the reasons why gliders and other aircraft where lift/drag ratio is paramount use high aspect ratio wings. Refer to picture below. They are maximising the effective lifting surface of their wing. Back to F1 now, the use of of the endplate devices such as the slots both above and below the wing serve to reduce the size of the tip vortices and regain lost wingspan henceforth creating more downforce. Both the slots above and below do the same job, they just achieve it in slightly different ways.

If anybody wants a different explanation PM me and I'll be happy to oblige.

http://www.sciencelearn.org.nz/var/scie ... ios-NC.jpg
The cluttered layouts and high AoA on F1 cars lead to a much different aerodynamic environment than on an airplane, besides everything you stated is well known by the people you think you're correcting. BHall and Shelly understand that the actual slots reduce drag. What they were saying was that this new wing in it's entirety, is using the rear slots INSTEAD OF THE FRONT SLOTS to increase DF rather than reducing drag.
“To be able to actually make something is awfully nice”
Bruce McLaren on building his first McLaren racecars, 1970

“I've got to be careful what I say, but possibly to probably Juan would have had a bigger go”
Sir Frank Williams after the 2003 Canadian GP, where Ralf hesitated to pass brother M. Schumacher

bhall
bhall
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Re: Red Bull RB10 Renault

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Chuckjr wrote:Bhallg2k,

Remember last year when Webber's car in Brazil revealed those trick vortices behind the front wing? I'd find and provide a link but my internet is dial up.

In that case with Webber, were not vortices actually used to generate positive force upon the flow of air to and around the side pods? Would this not then be a case where vortices are, in fact, encouraged rather than avoided? If so, would that be an example which is antithetical to some views which state vortices should be mitigated and/or avoided at all costs in F1? It seems that in the case of Newey, he's actually discovered a way of utilizing the seemingly negative properties of vortices to benefit the car?
Image

Though my line of thought generally mirrors what Lycoming said, I tend to give Adrian Newey the benefit of any doubt when it comes to his use aerodynamics. For whatever reason, he seems to have determined that it made sense to allow the formation of a vortex from the front wing along the vaunted Y250 axis in order to "energize" air flow around the sidepods. After all, he used three downstream devices to direct it along that path.

I think the important thing to remember here is that, when it comes to the rear wing, there's nothing downstream to "energize." All vortical flow, in and of itself, is increased drag with no benefit when it comes from the rear wing. But, you might be willing to accept that if the increased downforce that causes its formation results in an overall net-gain in performance. As always in F1, it's a compromise.

tok-tokkie
tok-tokkie
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Joined: 08 Jun 2009, 16:21
Location: Cape Town

Re: Red Bull RB10 Renault

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I would appreciate some input from you guys about slipstreaming.
The vortex originating from the rear wing - are they not too high to disturb the airflow to the following car's front wing when it closes to within 1 sec of the leading car?
Or has it had time to grow that big - but then its energy would be largely dissipated would it not?
So is it more the disturbed air ex the diffuser that affects the slipstreaming car?
Is it in fact vortices or just plain turbulence (rear tire wake springs to mind) that affects the trailing car?
I am wondering if Newey (to keep this question a bit within the RB10 topic) does not mind generating beneficial turbulence to help protect his car from overtaking. Your comments?

Lycoming
Lycoming
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Re: Red Bull RB10 Renault

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tok-tokkie wrote:I would appreciate some input from you guys about slipstreaming.
The vortex originating from the rear wing - are they not too high to disturb the airflow to the following car's front wing when it closes to within 1 sec of the leading car?
The vortex may impinge on the rear wing of the following car, but it is high enough that it's effect on front wing performance is probably peripheral. I would think that what affects the car more is just the low energy (turbulent) air coming off the car in front, plus the upwash from the diffuser and to a lesser extent, the rear wing. The rule changes in 2009 were meant to reduce the aerodynamic difficulty of following another car closely, but it doesn't eliminate the disadvantage.
tok-tokkie wrote:I am wondering if Newey (to keep this question a bit within the RB10 topic) does not mind generating beneficial turbulence to help protect his car from overtaking. Your comments?
That only works if you can get in front first. And to do that, you'd rather not generate any more turbulence than necessary.

I also find it weird that everybody automatically attributes every aero bit coming out of the RB factory as being the product of Newey's mind. He's not the only one at RB with good ideas and a sound knowledge of aerodynamics.

shelly
shelly
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Joined: 05 May 2009, 12:18

Re: Red Bull RB10 Renault

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It seems that for many users vortices are:
1)drag
2) items to redirect flow
3)items to energise flow

these are true, but there is much more than that. For those that want to learn something more, I suggest reading the very insightful posts by Gordon McCabe on his blog, about streamwise vorticity and helicity:

http://mccabism.blogspot.it/2010/12/vor ... icity.html

http://mccabism.blogspot.it/2011/12/how ... mwise.html

http://mccabism.blogspot.it/2012/02/fro ... tices.html
twitter: @armchair_aero

garygph
garygph
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Joined: 13 Oct 2008, 14:25

Re: Red Bull RB10 Renault

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Can any provide me a link or pic of the RB10 where you can see the front cameras on the nose? I cant seem to find one. Thanks

beelsebob
beelsebob
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Re: Red Bull RB10 Renault

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garygph wrote:Can any provide me a link or pic of the RB10 where you can see the front cameras on the nose? I cant seem to find one. Thanks
here:
Image

garygph
garygph
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Re: Red Bull RB10 Renault

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Thanks Beelsebob, appreciate that.

Now apparently my request warranted a downvote so this may land me in serious negative rating territory :wink:
But I still cannot see them. They are easy to pick out on the other cars and were not on this car for testing so I was very curious to see where they were going to be mounted. I am sure someone will be happy to show me where they are and I will feel like a real idiot for not seeing them but there you are. I am curious as I wondered if leaving them off during testing was because there was something innovative that they did not want copied too quickly.
Last edited by garygph on 23 Mar 2014, 18:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Cuky
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Re: Red Bull RB10 Renault

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look just above "O" in "CASIO" ;)

marcush.
marcush.
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Re: Red Bull RB10 Renault

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Image

garygph
garygph
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Re: Red Bull RB10 Renault

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#-o ok so I was an idiot. Thanks guys. It is innovative though and I wonder how many other teams are kicking themselves for not doing the same thing.

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Gridlock
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Re: Red Bull RB10 Renault

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No other team had FOM trying to give away all their secrets with rotating thermal cameras :)

I still think this is pique, not aero efficiency.
#58