How Do F1 Cars Generate So Much Downforce?

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BenjaminF1
BenjaminF1
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Joined: 20 Feb 2014, 03:15

Re: How Do F1 Cars Generate So Much Downforce?

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Here are a couple pictures of the underside and diffuser:
Thank for the images, from what i can see, the middle section of the diffuser looks a little steep, perhaps creating flow separation, perhaps try to reduce this angle, in fact try and experiment with different diffuser angles to try and get the highest velocity flow underneath the car. Also using flat plates for wings isnt great, even for a rough estimate they will not give good results. As others have said try and find a wing profile that has already been designed and mess around with the geometry so it suits your purpose, Reducing the angle of attack will also help. And again, i think you need to remove the wall of front wing at the front, and start of a little simpler. :)

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turbof1
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Location: MountDoom CFD Matrix

Re: How Do F1 Cars Generate So Much Downforce?

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I'm by no means an expert, but I'd try running skirts. The sides of the floor aren't closed, and going from the ground effect era, it would greatly benefit floor downforce.

Take a look at this:
Image

Also, like mentioned before your diffuser angle is too steep. Airflow simply doesn't stay attached. If you could repackage the car, get the diffuser to start more forward, you could keep the same height but with less an agressive angle.

I'd also to away with all the stacked pieces at the front. They are most likely cancelling out eachother. Start with a basic aerofoil piece and work out the elements from there.

If you have issues with packaging, try to increase the wheelbase.
#AeroFrodo

Quada
Quada
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Joined: 18 Mar 2014, 17:07

Re: How Do F1 Cars Generate So Much Downforce?

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Greg Locock wrote:FFS read Katz, best 30 bucks ever.
Is the FFS the Ferrari 2000 book you were referring to earlier? I tried a google search to find information with what f2000, ffs, and Katz were but found no answers.

Blanchimont
Blanchimont
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Re: How Do F1 Cars Generate So Much Downforce?

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Quada wrote:
Greg Locock wrote:FFS read Katz, best 30 bucks ever.
Is the FFS the Ferrari 2000 book you were referring to earlier? I tried a google search to find information with what f2000, ffs, and Katz were but found no answers.
FFS is a German company( http://www.ffs-synchron.de/ ) that translates foreign films and tv series.
Katz(e) is the German word for cat.

So, what Greg really wanted to say is that you should read the transcripts of online cat content translated by FFS into German to learn about aerodynamics of F1 cars.
Dear FIA, if you read this, please pm me for a redesign of the Technical Regulations to avoid finger nose shapes for 2016! :-)

gixxer_drew
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Re: How Do F1 Cars Generate So Much Downforce?

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Joseph Katz a professor and author of a book called "Race Car Aerodynamics". It is considered by myself and most aerodynamicists I know to be the closest to reality of all the "general" aero books.

Jersey Tom
Jersey Tom
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Re: How Do F1 Cars Generate So Much Downforce?

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How do F1 cars generate "so much" downforce.. they turn the flow quite well? (Which to do so you will want to keep the flow attached, which will require airfoils rather than plates).

Then again, my expertise is tires, so...
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: How Do F1 Cars Generate So Much Downforce?

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Nice one JT. =D>

The plates/aerofoils thing has been pointed out by others and appears to have been resisted too... :roll:
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

Greg Locock
Greg Locock
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Re: How Do F1 Cars Generate So Much Downforce?

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FFS is an abbreviation for exasperated expletive. Buy the Katz book. I don't particularly recommend the Ferrari coffee table book if you are only interested in aero. I do recommend you set some sensible targets for your car

desired top speed

engine power
driveline efficiency (80%)
frontal area
hence Cd

tire mu (1 would be a good place to start)
vehicle mass
max latacc at 80 kph
max latacc at 200 kph
hence CL

hence L/D is it feasible?

if not go back to a previous assumption and change it

etc
etc etc

note that no CFD is required, you are putting the cart before the horse

Jersey Tom
Jersey Tom
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Re: How Do F1 Cars Generate So Much Downforce?

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There's Greg trying to be practical again... crazy man.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

n_anirudh
n_anirudh
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Re: How Do F1 Cars Generate So Much Downforce?

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Greg Locock
Greg Locock
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Re: How Do F1 Cars Generate So Much Downforce?

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I'll probably regret this, here's a screenshot of a tool based on my suggestion



http://www.mediafire.com/view/831req3ri ... r_aero.png

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Kiril Varbanov
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Re: How Do F1 Cars Generate So Much Downforce?

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I have Simon's book, it is far more practical and easy to digest, if you are beginner, especially the second edition.
Katz is a hardcore guy :) Buy both books, it's money well spent if you are interested in aero. Sadly, there aren't too many.

MadMatt
MadMatt
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Joined: 08 Jan 2011, 16:04

Re: How Do F1 Cars Generate So Much Downforce?

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This kind of thread appears from time to time on the forum, the search function will yields plenty of identical discussions, but anyway.

The problem with ground effect cars is that they are very sensitive to ride height and attitude changes. If you want a predictable car (and not one that beyond 3% of a neutral position will lose half of its performance), then I would suggest to reduce ground effect features even if they are an easy way to achieve your goals.

I have developped a Pikes Peak car (check my blog >> HERE <<) and you can clearly see there how pitch affects its performance for example (look at the splitter values precisely on "v2"). I am going to start soon another project on the green Fabia that can be seen on the blog but this time with emphasis on keeping or increasing its performance with yaw while avoiding too dramatical change in performance with attitude changes.

As the other said, I believe you have not got enough knowledge to "know what you are doing". As tempting it can be to throw CAD into CFD, learn the basics first, start with a simple model, have it correlate with results you can find and then put your own model in, starting simple (no cascade wings, etc).

I haven't got lots of aero experience, but these are points I've learned along the way.

theslayermon
theslayermon
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Joined: 23 Mar 2014, 03:23

Re: How Do F1 Cars Generate So Much Downforce?

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Simple definitely seems the way to start, what i would do is plan out all the space needed for and make a smooth base over it (not for any down force, just something that shouldn't make a large amount of drag) and then move through and in turn add in the major areas of down force production. After you have a simple and working base then try the more interesting/odd ideas and refine things. Having a solid base would be a good priority.

BTW what CFD program are you using? I really like your second picture.

Greg Locock
Greg Locock
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Joined: 30 Jun 2012, 00:48

Re: How Do F1 Cars Generate So Much Downforce?

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I've just extended the spreadsheet, it now shows the fall off of cornering performance with speed, as the power required to slide the tires sideways exceeds engine power.

I'm pretty pleased with that. In this case it is for a generic F1 car

http://www.mediafire.com/view/o9t8uovbe ... _aero2.png