2014 intercooling

[ringo]

It's the mass of conductive material.
It has more mass and surface area overall. kilogram for kilogram the above would still hold.

[mrluke]

The benefit of air to water is that you can use a smaller "charge cooler" as it is being cooled by cold water with a high SHC rather than warm air.

How can the water be cooler than the radiator in the sidepod?

I somehow get the impression, that some people think the water cooling or heatpipe cooling is like a perpetual motion machine...I put a water cooler/heatpipe on a bottle of beer and what I get is ice cold beer...

Meh, replace "cold" and "warm" with ambient. Doesn't change my post.

[basti313]

The benefit of air to water is that you can use a smaller "charge cooler" as it is being cooled by cold water with a high SHC rather than warm air.

How can the water be cooler than the radiator in the sidepod?

I somehow get the impression, that some people think the water cooling or heatpipe cooling is like a perpetual motion machine...I put a water cooler/heatpipe on a bottle of beer and what I get is ice cold beer...

Meh, replace "cold" and "warm" with ambient. Doesn't change my post.

But you stated, that cold water gives you a smaller charge cooler than warm air. How can this point be still valid if we have water and air at ambient temperature?

Can it be, that you are still thinking about temperature peaks in the intercooling? I think they just not happen, in Malaysia the engine is 85% on throttle, 60% full throttle...Monza even 70% full throttle. There are no peaks, no time for cooling. The water stays at one temperature and the air to air cooler also stays at the same temperature if it has the same size at the cold side.

[atanatizante]

Could they build a mixture of both intercoolers in order to get the best from both?
Someone said here that one of the biggest factor in rad/intercooler efficiency (if not the biggest) is how big the specific heat value of an element/component is
Now it`s a known fact that if we are adding 3% of ordinary salt for cooking (NaCl) into 1 litre of pure water the result is the boiling point increase to 103 grade Celsius, hence the specific heat value is increasing?
Yeah, you could say now that the greater quantity of salt the greater boiling point would be but in practice the drawback is that you also increase the viscosity of the fluid …
So how about a mix intercooler with a traditional air-to-air intercooler but also has integrated in their metal walls micro or nanotubes with salty water which is running in a small and locally circuit

[basti313]

Could they build a mixture of both intercoolers in order to get the best from both?

The only benefit I can think of the water solution is that you do not have to run the charge lines through the car. But this would be still necessary with a mixture of both solutions. I do not know if there is such a solution anywhere in practice.

Someone said here that one of the biggest factor in rad/intercooler efficiency (if not the biggest) is how big the specific heat value of an element/component is

No. The heat capacity always only goes into the Prandtl number http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prandtl_number
And the Prandtl number only goes into the process with ^0.4 whereas the flow rate of the fluid goes into it with ^0.8 (very basic assumptions, not really going into details). So you do not have to concern about changing the heat capacity at all as it is easily covered by changes in the flow rate.

Now it`s a known fact that if we are adding 3% of ordinary salt for cooking (NaCl) into 1 litre of pure water the result is the boiling point increase to 103 grade Celsius, hence the specific heat value is increasing?
Yeah, you could say now that the greater quantity of salt the greater boiling point would be but in practice the drawback is that you also increase the viscosity of the fluid …

It is the other way round. Adding salt/alcohol to water decreases the specific heat as it destroys hydrogen bonds and, thus reduces the thermal conductivity.

So how about a mix intercooler with a traditional air-to-air intercooler but also has integrated in their metal walls micro or nanotubes with salty water which is running in a small and locally circuit

There is no need to store the heat in water as there is no time for cooling it away.

[mrluke]

But you stated, that cold water gives you a smaller charge cooler than warm air. How can this point be still valid if we have water and air at ambient temperature?

Can it be, that you are still thinking about temperature peaks in the intercooling? I think they just not happen, in Malaysia the engine is 85% on throttle, 60% full throttle...Monza even 70% full throttle. There are no peaks, no time for cooling. The water stays at one temperature and the air to air cooler also stays at the same temperature if it has the same size at the cold side.

No. its because the water has a much higher shc so can absorb more temperature from a smaller exchange area.

The reason my wording got jumbled up was that the water will be cold in comparison to the compressed air, but the outside air temperature is unlikely to be described as cold, I should have reread and corrected.

[ringo]

At the end of the day it's the air passing through and out the sidepod.
That air can take only so much heat when it comes into contact with the heat exchanger, regardless of what's in it.
You want that exchange to be as efficient as possible.

[Abarth]

Exactly. And you want the temp difference between outside air and the medium which has to be cooled as high as possible, as cooling power raises with raising delta T.

And this has its limits, obviously.

[ringo]

hmm i'm not seeing where a water intercooler would would be in this case..

There doesn't seem to be any room for one, if we look on where the air intakes split around the air filter.

[ringo]

Here we see Mclaren with their intercooler on the left hand side of the car.


I think the black pipe on top is the charge air pipe.
The right hand side only has one heat exchanger.

I guess the weight of the air in the intercooller wont make the car too unbalanced laterally.

[Owen.C93]

http://www.autobild.de/ir_img/1/1/6/6/6 ... 90d826.jpg
http://img3.auto-motor-und-sport.de/Mer ... 769432.jpg
hmm i'm not seeing where a water intercooler would would be in this case..

There doesn't seem to be any room for one, if we look on where the air intakes split around the air filter.

I'm fairly sure it's down between the fuel tank. There's no need to put it in the sidepod like Lotus because the compressor is at the front already.
http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... 82#p495182

Having since seen the long and thin lotus cooler then perhaps that black pipe I put the red arrow on is the cooler itself and it may not be a big cube one like Ferrari.

[Owen.C93]

Here we see Mclaren with their intercooler on the left hand side of the car.

http://img4.auto-motor-und-sport.de/McL ... 769268.jpg
I think the black pipe on top is the charge air pipe.
The right hand side only has one heat exchanger.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BimJqCQCIAAOGtG.jpg:large
I guess the weight of the air in the intercooller wont make the car too unbalanced laterally.

Looking at the images the intercooler looks to be on the bottom pic by the shape of the cooler pipe entry on top.

[timbo]

I think the intercooler is on the left side of the car.

[FW17]

If merc are running water air intercooler, they could be running with the heat exchanger within the intake plenum

but this pic is confusing

[mrluke]

I am wondering if the compressor has 2 outlets, one hidden behind the fuel cell. This would allow 2 charge air coolers serving as part of the pipework and linking the compressor outlet with the carbon intake manifolds.

That last picture is interesting though, looks like a torturous route for the charge air.