Ferrari F14T

[TheGkbrk]

Downforce isn't Ferrari's actual problem right now.

[Javert]

Why do you believe that a penis nose would do that?

Because their ultra-high chassis can manage a wonderful amount of air which is hampered by their 135mm height nose
(the single penis can be kept at 180mm). The idea behind 2012 and 2013 front pull rod was to have the greatest amount of air possible .. with 135mm height nose it's pointless imho[/quote]
What makes you believe that you can tell with the naked eye, how much air gets under the nose of the Ferrari compared to any other design of nose? Not only that, but figure that out better than a bunch of trained aerodynamicists at Ferrari can with actual real tools and modelling?[/quote]

Well that's a simple m^3 volume computation!


I'm not speaking about the chassis quality, I'm speaking about the air volume

Ferrari keep saying that they are very fast in the high speed corners, which would suggest, that they are doing well downforce wise. After the race Alonso said that they were lacking in traction and top speed.

Seeing their S2 times, Ferrari lacks also a bit of rear downforce!

[atlantis]

Ferrari drivers have to do a lot of corrections with the steering wheels, which are moving and vibrating a lot. Mercedes looks very stable and drivers do almost no corrections: why do you think it happens? Too much oversteering?

[timbo]

Well that's a simple m^3 volume computation!
http://www.autoweek.com/galleryimage/CW ... -VJM07.jpg
http://richlandf1.com/wp-content/upload ... t-nose.png
I'm not speaking about the chassis quality, I'm speaking about the air volume

It's not simple. We are below the speed of sound, so the air can travel around obstacles without loosing that much energy in certain cases. Look, for example, at RB's monkey seat located below exhaust, completely shadowed from the free stream.

Seeing their S2 times, Ferrari lacks also a bit of rear downforce!

How can you tell from a singular sector time it is not a front downforce? Or that is a downforce issue at all? It's not like S2 is all corners. It has quite a bit of acceleration zones too. The results in S1 and S3 is probably inflated for everyone except Hamilton/Vettel and Rosberg as others used DRS at some points. So the picture is skewed, it's not easy to get fair picture from it.

[timbo]

Ferrari drivers have to do a lot of corrections with the steering wheels, which are moving and vibrating a lot. Mercedes looks very stable and drivers do almost no corrections: why do you think it happens? Too much oversteering?

Last year it would clearly mean suspension/aero problem, this year it can be engine/ERS performance too. Merc is overall best engine is all three aspects: power, consumption, driveability.

[timbo]

Ferrari drivers have to do a lot of corrections with the steering wheels, which are moving and vibrating a lot. Mercedes looks very stable and drivers do almost no corrections: why do you think it happens? Too much oversteering?

Mercedes driving away from the field in 1st and 2nd pretty comfortably... you don't need to push the car very hard. Cruise control mode, managing tires and engine, driving under the absolute limit of the car.

Much different when you're really pushing and trying to battle for positions.

While it is indeed true, it seems that Merc has easier time putting the power down this year in general.

[beelsebob]

What makes you believe that you can tell with the naked eye, how much air gets under the nose of the Ferrari compared to any other design of nose? Not only that, but figure that out better than a bunch of trained aerodynamicists at Ferrari can with actual real tools and modelling?

Well that's a simple m^3 volume computation!

If you think it's a simple m^3 volume computation, what on earth makes you think the Ferrari engineers haven't done it? Had you not considered that they might have done that computation, and done some other computations and simulation, and settled on a different nose design from the "obvious" one an armchair aerodynamicist would have come up with?

It's no coincidence that the fastest, and 3rd fastest cars on the grid share the same nose philosophy, with the second fastest somewhat similar in my opinion.

[shelly]

Low nose like merc and ferrari is saide to give more downforce due to the low pressure on the low part of the nose cone.
Then how the floor works depends by other factors

[f1316]

Yeah but that's front downforce and the suggestion here is that the higher nose would get more air to the rear to aid rear downforce.

But anyway, not only am I sure that they've thought of that, done the computations, and understood that this is better for them, they've actually said so - and pointed out what little difference it makes.

[flyboy2160]

You guys have be told several times not to post about race strategy or driver talent in the car threads. Moving the off-topic posts is a chore, so I'm just going to delete them all. Please feel free to resume the discussion in the Team thread.

[flyboy2160]

.....
These designs have the potential for less drag than other dick-nose designs. Not only does the phallus have a tendency to disturb air flow, simply allowing a loooooooong boundary layer to form under the chassis carries the risk of increased drag due to the tendency of boundary layer flow to thicken downstream, which effectively increases the size of the chassis.

.....All of this is to say, there are no black-and-white, good-or-bad solutions this year. At least not yet. I think the designs are simply too immature to judge at this point.

B,

I'll buy your last paragraph, but not the part about the phallus noses increasing drag compared to a non-phallus low nose like Ferrari's. I could argue the other side that, in the absence of separation, (subsonically) wetted area drives drag. The low noses have both more wetted area and, by the looks of it, probably more separation on the back/lower faces. I could also argue that the phallus noses appear to be trying to maintain the Postlewaite high nose flow philosophy to whatever extent they can, while Ferrari looks like it has abandoned it and gone on to try something different.

Once you've lost the energy from the air, trying to reenergize it will always cost you something. So I'm not buying the argument that Ferrari can reenergize the air behind the low nose to make it as if it was a high nose.

It is fascinating to me to see how this will all shake out.

Flyboy Steve

[beelsebob]

The only thing I'd say is becoming clear is that the low(ish) nose is "good" relative to the penis nose. As I said above, I don't think it's a coincidence that the top 3 teams have similar nose designs.

[bhall]

B,

I'll buy your last paragraph, but not the part about the phallus noses increasing drag compared to a non-phallus low nose like Ferrari's. I could argue the other side that, in the absence of separation, (subsonically) wetted area drives drag. The low noses have both more wetted area and, by the looks of it, probably more separation on the back/lower faces. I could also argue that the phallus noses appear to be trying to maintain the Postlewaite high nose flow philosophy to whatever extent they can, while Ferrari looks like it has abandoned it and gone on to try something different.

Once you've lost the energy from the air, trying to reenergize it will always cost you something. So I'm not buying the argument that Ferrari can reenergize the air behind the low nose to make it as if it was a high nose.

It is fascinating to me to see how this will all shake out.

Flyboy Steve

Honestly, I thought it was a given at this point that cars endowed with dude-pistons are indeed an attempt to maintain previous years' high-nose conventions. After all, the sole reason for the new carbon fiber spawnhammers is to leave the low-nose mandate breathless, quivering, and unwilling to object. Otherwise the design appears to lack a genuine desire to go down on the spirit of the rule.

Just look at the Force India for example: stuck in his ways, its designer clearly had no intention of using the real nose of that car to satisfy the FIA's yearning.

At least, that's the position upon which my comments rode wildly.

EDIT: And for what it's worth, I'm also not buying the argument that Ferrari can re-energize the air behind the low nose to make it as if it was a high nose.

[lombers]

Scarbs confirmed very early on in the season that whilst the new "noses" would generate controversy, they certainly wouldn't contribute heavily to overall performance of the car.

I appreciate that they can have some impact on air flows, but I think the difference between most of the designs would be minimal at best.

On a different topic here's hoping that the rumoured electronics fix posted a few pages back makes it to the next Grand Prix in Bahrain. The F14T is definitely struggling power delivery wise, as evidenced by it's poor top speed. In fact the same can be said for all Ferrari powered cars.

I wonder if Ferrari need to alter their setup a bit for the harder compound tyres this year too. They were really struggling very early on in the race, almost like it took a long time for them to get their tyres into a good working range.

[.poz]

I was just asking, because suspension changes could improve traction.

F14T traction problems are engine related.