Manually applying brakes to inside tires while cornering?

[g-force_addict]

Some sort of driver operated Stability or Traction Control that applies a small % of braking power when cornering.

As not to be an active system either the driver will need to either
press a button or the cornering direction (i.e. left or right)
have a steering position sensor that activates the selective braking when the steering wheel
is turned a certain angle indicating the car is cornering. Of course it will disengage when
countersteering.

At most the driver could change the preset braking force %, modify front-rear bias and onset of action speed as track conditions or racing strategy change.

It might reduce the need for a, and the wear and lost power of a limited slip differential.
It might be specially useful when trail-braking as the outside wheels are turning faster thus more friction is generated by the outside tire' brakes.

[Holm86]

McLaren already did this. Its banned now.

[SiLo]

They did, and it looked like this:


On the left is a small brake pedal that they used to apply brake force to the inside rear wheel during cornering whilst not being on the actual brakes. This rotated the car from the rear to give better cornering angles meaning they could get back on the power sooner.

[autogyro]

Much better is a torque vectoring diff coupled to KER and rear brakes.
The fly by wire current rear brake control would then include vectored torque to the inside rear wheel as needed.
TR, TC and control over under/over steer all in one.
Simples;-)

[Greg Locock]

independently braking each rear wheel was commonly used on agricultural tractors in the sixties. They are called fiddle brakes.

[autogyro]

independently braking each rear wheel was commonly used on agricultural tractors in the sixties. They are called fiddle brakes.

Very useful for getting out of deep mud holes by using each brake alternately.
Fiddle brakes were also used on early tanks and we have three tracked diggers that use them as well as a couple of vintage tractors.

[Tim.Wright]

The problem with doing this at the brakes (on a race car) is you lose much more power than you would if you do it in the diff

[autogyro]

The problem with doing this at the brakes (on a race car) is you lose much more power than you would if you do it in the diff

Exactly Tim and in the transmission.
There is a huge amount of potential development work available in this area.
Unfortunately it will never be undertaken in F1.
Let us hope that FE will be more open in regulation, it makes sense for it to be so.

[dynatune]

On top of that braking can only "react" whereas an LSD does "act" .... does make a small difference in reaction time ....

dynatune, http://www.dynatune-xl.com

[Greg Locock]

With an intelligent system with preview the brakes or the diff (if you are using torque vectoring) could start to apply a bias before corner entry.

[autogyro]

On top of that braking can only "react" whereas an LSD does "act" .... does make a small difference in reaction time ....

dynatune, http://www.dynatune-xl.com

I am not talking about an ordinary LSD but the huge potential of torque vectoring technology.
Electro magnetics is the future.

[Greg Locock]

I don't think anyone would argue against torque vectoring as a concept, the trick seems to be packaging and complexity.

I suppose i could be cynical and suggest that since you are unlikely to be using full power when cornering so using the brakes and a diff to get the same effect is not the end of the world, but it certainly isn't elegant.

[g-force_addict]

They did, and it looked like this:

http://www.farzadsf1gallery.com/image_u ... -PEDAL.jpg
On the left is a small brake pedal that they used to apply brake force to the inside rear wheel during cornering whilst not being on the actual brakes. This rotated the car from the rear to give better cornering angles meaning they could get back on the power sooner.

Great find!!!
There's only one pedal so How did they switch from left to right brakes?
Why not a 3rd and 4th pedal? One for left the other for right braking?

I don't think anyone would argue against torque vectoring as a concept, the trick seems to be packaging and complexity.

I suppose i could be cynical and suggest that since you are unlikely to be using full power when cornering so using the brakes and a diff to get the same effect is not the end of the world, but it certainly isn't elegant.

So I thought.

If brake wear and overheating isn't an issue then selective braking can do everything a torque vectoring does with only a fraction of its weight, complexity and cost.

Also selective braking can tolerate higher power as it has the brakes to act (which are powerful enough to completely lock the wheels) as compared to the small friction area available inside the differential.

[Tim.Wright]

They did, and it looked like this:

http://www.farzadsf1gallery.com/image_u ... -PEDAL.jpg
On the left is a small brake pedal that they used to apply brake force to the inside rear wheel during cornering whilst not being on the actual brakes. This rotated the car from the rear to give better cornering angles meaning they could get back on the power sooner.

Great find!!!
There's only one pedal so How did they switch from left to right brakes?
Why not a 3rd and 4th pedal? One for left the other for right braking?

The pedal only controlled one brake. They chose which one (left or right) to use at the start of the weekend. They only had room to package one pedal in the footwell. The pedal they used used to be the clutch pedal until they switched to a steering wheel mounted control.

[autogyro]

I don't think anyone would argue against torque vectoring as a concept, the trick seems to be packaging and complexity.

I suppose i could be cynical and suggest that since you are unlikely to be using full power when cornering so using the brakes and a diff to get the same effect is not the end of the world, but it certainly isn't elegant.

Using the brakes for control over torque transfer also prevents the use of KER when the brakes are applied.
Using torque vectoring allows it to be coupled to KER to make use of the maximum recoverable energy available.
Of course to be able to do so you need to control gear shifts and the changes in the application of power far better.
Guess what I have such a transmission system that uses EM operation smooth enough for this an ESERU that replaces the gearbox and clutch.
Continuing with a motor/generator bolted to the crank nose is far to crude a method.
If this was done we could start looking into replacing the wheel brakes with ER systems.
Unfortunately the regulations will prevent this ever happening in F1.