2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

[xpensive]

I think all three have the same 600 some ICE Hp, what matters is for how long your ERS can support the xtra 160 MGU-K Hp.

With braking harvest limited to 2000 kWs per lap, you have to make the very most of the unlimited MGU-H recovery.

This is where MHPE is obviously way ahead, having 760 Hp anywhere and anytime.

[bhall]

That's all fine and all, except toro rosso was achieving exactly the same top speeds trough speed traps in the race as red bull up front. And as I said before, it could be renault has good PEAK power, but can't sustain it for very long without a meltdown.

This is pretty much my line of thought as well. I don't necessarily think the Mercedes PU has an advantage over other PUs in terms of potential; it's that, for whatever reason(s), non-Mercedes PUs are currently at a disadvantage because they haven't reached it yet.

While there's essentially no difference between either assessment, the implications, on the other hand, are very different.

[Holm86]

I think all three have the same 600 some ICE Hp, what matters is for how long your ERS can support the xtra 160 MGU-K Hp.

With braking harvest limited to 2000 kWs per lap, you have to make the very most of the unlimited MGU-H recovery.

This is where MHPE is obviously way ahead, having 760 Hp anywhere and anytime.

If it is true that Mercedes engines has 760 hp anywhere and anytime it means that their MGU-H is capable of substracting 120 kW from the exhaust gasses. Is this believable?

It would actually be more than 120 kW when accounting for the powerloss from the MGU-H -> MGU-K.

[xpensive]

I think all three have the same 600 some ICE Hp, what matters is for how long your ERS can support the xtra 160 MGU-K Hp.

With braking harvest limited to 2000 kWs per lap, you have to make the very most of the unlimited MGU-H recovery.

This is where MHPE is obviously way ahead, having 760 Hp anywhere and anytime.

If it is true that Mercedes engines has 760 hp anywhere and anytime it means that their MGU-H is capable of substracting 120 kW from the exhaust gasses. Is this believable?

Not necessarily and perhaps not anywhere, if the braking generates energy for 16.2 s of 160 Hp, you need the MGU-H to generate some 4000 kWs over about 100 s, meaning 40 kW in average, in order to have a full 50 seconds of 160 Hp per lap.

Note that I prefer kWs to MJ, makes it easier to grasp.

[Juzh]

Yes and no.
We are also talking about peak power anyway.
The RB10 has abvioulsy more downforce but it doesnt seem to have the same peak power as the STR IMO.

Could be. Still, their acceleration figures are nearly the same, which could not be the case without equal power.

[Owen.C93]

Only 3 weeks behind.

http://www1.skysports.com/f1/news/12472/9243875

[xpensive]

Yes and no.
We are also talking about peak power anyway.
The RB10 has abvioulsy more downforce but it doesnt seem to have the same peak power as the STR IMO.

Could be. Still, their acceleration figures are nearly the same, which could not be the case without equal power.

But the question is equal power for how long?

[Blackout]

Maybe the Merc MGUH spends less time and energy accelerating the turbo... The way between the compressor and the intercooler sems to be short in the Merc layout and the compressor might be blowing a fresher air in the intercooler because it's far from the turbine's heat...

EDIT: lol indeed... 3 weeks behind.

[ppj13]

I think all three have the same 600 some ICE Hp, what matters is for how long your ERS can support the xtra 160 MGU-K Hp.

With braking harvest limited to 2000 kWs per lap, you have to make the very most of the unlimited MGU-H recovery.

This is where MHPE is obviously way ahead, having 760 Hp anywhere and anytime.

If it is true that Mercedes engines has 760 hp anywhere and anytime it means that their MGU-H is capable of substracting 120 kW from the exhaust gasses. Is this believable?

Not necessarily and perhaps not anywhere, if the braking generates energy for 16.2 s of 160 Hp, you need the MGU-H to generate some 4000 kWs over about 100 s, meaning 40 kW in average, in order to have a full 50 seconds of 160 Hp per lap.

Note that I prefer kWs to MJ, makes it easier to grasp.

And as the mguH will not be able to generate nothing if the engine is not at full power, it means the MGUH should be able to extract some 80Kw at that condition, for 50s.

Which means the turbine should be able to extract the power needed to run the compressor, which I don't know if it's been estimated but has to be in the whereabouts of 80Kw, plus the other 80Kw needed for compounding the MGUK.

Sure it's a challenge, but should be possible.

[Juzh]

Yes and no.
We are also talking about peak power anyway.
The RB10 has abvioulsy more downforce but it doesnt seem to have the same peak power as the STR IMO.

Could be. Still, their acceleration figures are nearly the same, which could not be the case without equal power.

But the question is equal power for how long?

Well, S3 speed trap is at the start/finish line, so basically at the very end of the lap. TR and RB speeds were identical trough there the entire race, which wouldn't indicate RB suffers towards the end of the lap or the race.

By speed trap top speeds I meant S1 and S3 speed trap, not end of start/finish straight absolute top speed trap. Absolute top speed is skewed up by too many factors, such as slipstream or drs, to be taken at face value. Hamilton is 2nd slowest of all for for christ sakes.

[Holm86]

I think all three have the same 600 some ICE Hp, what matters is for how long your ERS can support the xtra 160 MGU-K Hp.

With braking harvest limited to 2000 kWs per lap, you have to make the very most of the unlimited MGU-H recovery.

This is where MHPE is obviously way ahead, having 760 Hp anywhere and anytime.

If it is true that Mercedes engines has 760 hp anywhere and anytime it means that their MGU-H is capable of substracting 120 kW from the exhaust gasses. Is this believable?

Not necessarily and perhaps not anywhere, if the braking generates energy for 16.2 s of 160 Hp, you need the MGU-H to generate some 4000 kWs over about 100 s, meaning 40 kW in average, in order to have a full 50 seconds of 160 Hp per lap.

Note that I prefer kWs to MJ, makes it easier to grasp.

I don't really understand you calculations? You have 4 MJ which the 120 Kw MGU-K can use during one lap. That means 160 hp for 33.33 sec. If you want any other energy during this lap it has to come directly from the MGU-H meaning if you have 760 hp for more than the 33.33 secs you need to be able to draw more than 120 kW from the exhaust to send directly to the MGU-K.

[Juzh]

I don't really understand you calculations? You have 4 MJ which the 120 Kw MGU-K can use during one lap. That means 160 hp for 33.33 sec. If you want any other energy during this lap it has to come directly from the MGU-H meaning if you have 760 hp for more than the 33.33 secs you need to be able to draw more than 120 kW from the exhaust to send directly to the MGU-K.

True. After theoretical 4MJ from ES to mgu-k is depleted, you're stuck with whatever mgu-h can provide directly to mgu-k.

[ppj13]

And don't forget that almost every team is using some way or other of saving fuel while driving. The main reason explaining why teams using similar engines have different fuel use is not drag, but fuel saving "tricks".

Williams may use as much fuel as any other merc team if williams choose to give their drivers full power in top gears. But looks like they don't think it's a good idea, so they prefer to run 4 kg lighter in average during the race, having the biggest advantage in the first laps, but trading away some km/h of top speed.

[xpensive]

I don't really understand you calculations? You have 4 MJ which the 120 Kw MGU-K can use during one lap. That means 160 hp for 33.33 sec. If you want any other energy during this lap it has to come directly from the MGU-H meaning if you have 760 hp for more than the 33.33 secs you need to be able to draw more than 120 kW from the exhaust to send directly to the MGU-K.

True. After theoretical 4MJ from ES to mgu-k is depleted, you're stuck with whatever mgu-h can provide directly to mgu-k.

Well it's kinda complicated, first of all you need the MGU-H to feed the battery with 2000 kWs to maximize the 4000 kWs discharge per lap, how you spend this over the lap is another matter, matched to the direct energy-flow to the MGU-K.

Wouldn't be surprised if the MHPE-unit recycles as much as 80 kW from the MGU-H at full speed, only using 40 from the battery.

[Abarth]

I don't buy the advantage in cooler compressed air the split turbine design should have. The compressor turbine can quite easily be insulated.
But it may allow for a longer electrical motor having smaller diameter, resulting in less mass moment of inertia.

Still, I think one of the advantages the Mercedes PU design has is packaging, allowing for smaller engine covers and neater piping.