2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

[garrett]

I think so too. This is why I believe that when the engine manufactures solves the reliability they will try so use more fuel in the exhaust in a anti-lag/"afterburner" sort of way to be able to generate as much power from the MGU-H as possible. This will of course use more fuel so would only be relevant during qualification or on tracks which demands less fuel.

Personally, I think that's precisely the reason for Red Bull's fuel sensor woes. It's like they're using more fuel to get more energetic exhaust to prop up an ineffective MGU-H.

But, that's neither here, nor there.

Maybe I am wrong and did not see it right, but today in free practice I noticed a certain shimmering together with the cloud we know from the eighties behind Vettels car. Could it be that the RB runs "richer" than other cars??

[TinoBoost]

Maybe I am wrong and did not see it right, but today in free practice I noticed a certain shimmering together with the cloud we know from the eighties behind Vettels car. Could it be that the RB runs "richer" than other cars??

Afterburning would destroy efficiency.

Backpressure spins the turbo, and as ringo said, it is possible to get more power from the MGUH than assumed so far.
Clever intake and exhaust timing can lower the effect of power loss on the ICE from high backpressure. After all, you are fuel limited so you just need to push enough fresh air to combust the fuel. You can keep as much exhaust as you can before heat becomes an issue.

These engines (actually PUs) re-define what engine(actually PU) tuning is about. Engines (...) are very complex, and they have not evolved towards factoring in all these innovations and the trade-offs. And there is a lot of those tradeoffs, and manufacturers obviously have not made the same ones, yet they are probably all conservative at this point. These engines have a lot of evolution to go through.

[wuzak]

Because both systems can't be used concurrently to power the car (due to the 120 kW cap placed on the MGU-K), I think the idea is to make the MGU-H as efficient as possible so that it can charge the ES as quickly/completely as possible during the 33.3s when ES/MGU-K power is allowed. At all other times, the MGU-H powers the MGU-K/spools up the turbine, etc, while the MGU-K charges the ES under braking.

I still don't see the benefit of using the MGU-H to fill the battery.

The ES time use is extended by only requiring (relatively) small amounts of power from it for the MGU-K - the balance coming from the MGU-H.

There wil be times during a lap where the PU produces enough power by itself to break traction, or provide the torque that the driver requires. In those situations there could be a balancing of the load through the ICE and MGU-H/MGU-K (ie lower the ICE power by the amoun of the electrical power to get the demanded power), which gives lower fuel consumption, or to use the ICE to power the car and store the generated electricity.

Of course the teams cannot use any traction control, so they must estimate the traction in each acceleration zone and program the ECU accordingly.

The storage and usage of energy from the MGU-H via the ES introduces two energy transfer losses into the system. This is a waste of energy.

Also, Ferrari's drivers have struggled with traction exiting corners, suggesting that the MGU-K applies its power rather more suddenly than would be desired. Could it be that Ferrari haven't quite got the balancing act right, whereas Mercedes have?

[321apex]

The question is if all Mercedes powered cars are equal, or are some more equal than others, I have my suspicions there.

Software and such proprietary products are ideal to bury hidden functions to be known only to the creators or some other chosen few. That way you could give the same code to everyone so there will not be any smoking gun.

If I was to put my finger on something, then it would be a function allowing better power delivery control out of the corners. Better in terms of enhanced controllability and modulation to the team and driver. With electric being such significant part, it's delivery control should be quite nice to tune and control.

Is Mercedes team a known genius in terms of aero or chassis efficiency? Not likely.
How else can one explain their present 1 sec advantage if we assume no sandbagging?

[xpensive]

I'm certain the secret of Mercedes' sudden superiority lies within the Daimler people in Sindelfingen, not Brackley.

[321apex]

If they are able to load the MGUK fully during all braking it looks like around 1.68MJ recovery. 600hp ICE with 20% "free" compounding leaves 40hp to take from the ES. With 1.68MJ a lap in the ES, the full 160hp MGUK can be realized for over 50s. Lots of assumptions, but it looks possible.

Not full kW values claimed by Brembo are recovered in battery!

My question is what part of this kW value is recoverable by the rear wheels, which are the only means to reclaim electrical power. Not knowing specifically, I would guesstimate it to be 30-35%.
Any opinions on that?

If such was the case, do we get 2MJ per each lap?

[xpensive]

With 13.48 sec of braking per lap, the maximum from the 120 kW MGU-K can never be more than 1617 kWs, or 1.6 MJ.

[Tommy Cookers]

My question is what part of this kW value is recoverable by the rear wheels, which are the only means to reclaim electrical power. Not knowing specifically, I would guesstimate it to be 30-35%.
Any opinions on that?

80-85% will be the end to end efficiency of the mgu-k/ERS cycle
if sceptical, consider also that any 'missing' % will emerge as heat

and the 120 kW rule is based on an allowance for 5% loss at the mgu-k eg when converting mechanical work to electrical work
ie it allows recovery at 126 kW mechanical power, assuming (at 95% effic) this will give 120 kW electrical power generation
so when generation is more than 95% efficient (which it will be sometimes) the electrical power can be maybe 122 or 123 kW

[xpensive]

...
80-85% will be the end to end efficiency of the mgu-k/ERS cycle
if sceptical, consider also that any 'missing' % will emerge as heat
...

80-85 % is a reasonable estimate, meaning that you have a 20 kW heating element everytime you brake, like 40 toasters.

[321apex]

My point is merely related to the traction limited capacity of rear wheels being slowed down. As we all know, the weight transfer under braking goes to the front thereby limiting rear traction to provide braking effect.

The question I posed is how much of the whole lap kW energy of braking can be harnessed by traction limited rear wheels?
Are you guys certain that the 1.6MJ quoted by you is correct for Bahrain? I have not done the analysis, so am just asking to make sure.

[321apex]

My question is what part of this kW value is recoverable by the rear wheels, which are the only means to reclaim electrical power. Not knowing specifically, I would guesstimate it to be 30-35%.
Any opinions on that?

80-85% will be the end to end efficiency of the mgu-k/ERS cycle
if sceptical, consider also that any 'missing' % will emerge as heat

Be sure that I appreciate the energy conversion efficiencies and losses and you are correct that these would end up as heat to be dissipated somewhere. You misunderstood my question.

[321apex]

I have been away from the discussion for few weeks.
What is the latest of confirmed information related to ICE piston power in true race conditions?

[xpensive]

If the total braking power according to Brembo is up to 2000 kW, I'm certain the rear wheels/MGU-K can pick up 160 anytime.

27.88 g/seconds of fuel will yield some 450 kW, or 600 Hp, at an efficiency of 35%.

[321apex]

If the total braking power according to Brembo is up to 2000 kW, I'm certain the rear wheels/MGU-K can pick up 160 anytime.

Indeed, it appears so.

27.88 g/seconds of fuel will yield some 450 kW, or 600 Hp, at an efficiency of 35%.

I meant "confirmed" power figures instead the same rehashed "estimates" than have been grilled here for months.

[wuzak]

I meant "confirmed" power figures instead the same rehashed "estimates" than have been grilled here for months.

You're not going to get them any time soon.

The best we can do is use the figure Niki Lauda gave in an interview - 580hp, IIRC.