2014 too slow? (or not, as the case may be)

[Pierce89]

It's odd GP2 isn't a lot faster considering the much bigger diffuser and beam wing.

You do realize the gp2 Dallara was built to a specific speed, don't you? Its not like f1 where there's a set of rules and Dallara built the fastest car they could. They needed x amount of DF so they enlarge the diffuser till they get there. Its infinitely less expensive than the constant optimisation of F1.

[strad]

"Formula One should be about excitement," Newey said. "It should be about man and machine performing at its maximum every single lap.

"OK, they're using 50 kilos less fuel (per race) but they're going a lot slower to achieve that."

[bhall]

2014 pole time 1:33.186
2013 pole time 1:32.330

just 0.8 sec slow with less df, 50kg extra, smaller engines and harder tyres

i dont think they slow

Bahrain is essentially a collection of straights that are particularly well-suited for a low-downforce formula. Otherwise, the cars have been shown to be very slow thus far, especially in race trim.

Malaysia fastest laps:

2013: 1:39.199, Perez
2014: 1:43.066, Hamilton
Track record: 1:34.223, Juan Pablo Montoya

Australia fastest laps:

2013: 1:29.274, Raikkonen
2014: 1:32.478, Rosberg
Track record: 1:24.125

So, yeah. F1 is not going in the right direction these days.

[iotar__]

"Formula One should be about excitement," Newey said. "It should be about man and machine performing at its maximum every single lap.

"OK, they're using 50 kilos less fuel (per race) but they're going a lot slower to achieve that."

It's off topic anyway - speed only is the topic of the thread, numbers are pretty clear but I see - if reality doesn't match wishful thinking (OMG, F1 will be as slow as GP2) too bad for reality.

If Newey wants excitement he should be lobbying for any changes that make F1 interesting, competitive sport and I haven't seen him doing that. He should start with preferential financial and political treatment of his own team and some others that limits excitement before any team starts designing a car. Any thoughts on spending cap Mr. Newey? I bet it's "not what F1 should be about" nonsense. Any thought of a sport pathology when you can own two teams, GP and sit on board of F1 and benefit from that? Were Webber, Vergne, Schumacher and Ricciardo pushing maximum every lap when they were letting Vettel pass them in Brazil 2012, you hypocrite?
I don't recall him complaining in 2011 or second half of 2012-2013 when they weren't pushing every lap but his Red Bull was winning every race. If they were winning in 2014 we wouldn't hear anything about it either. Why? Because it only "became" an issue when it turned out they may not be dominant.

And no, for 100th time there's no golden standard what F1 should be like. It's just fast cars racing on tracks for money and entertainment. Also if let's say because of tyres they were 95% limited they could still race each other 100% relatively and drivers could make a difference, ask Alonso in 2012. I wonder what Newey thinks about faster 2s cars stuck behind slower and unable to overtake, is this car pushing to maximum? I don't think so. "Newey says so". So what? He'd say anything that may benefit himself and his team like this shameless lying when lobbying for tyres approach changes that benefited them. They should ask him what he thinks about customer cars and further limiting of competitivenesses, and yes new engine rules are part of it but it was OK as long it benefited 3 teams including Red Bull.
Until they (include audience) are consistent or at least slightly honest (Button ) I translate it all into "F1 should be about us winning regardless of anything else". They'd use every dirty political trick (ask why (rumoured) Horner was talking to F1 owner CVC's McKenzie) to get the advantage and later complain about state of F1.

[iotar__]

2014 pole time 1:33.186
2013 pole time 1:32.330

just 0.8 sec slow with less df, 50kg extra, smaller engines and harder tyres

i dont think they slow

Bahrain is essentially a collection of straights that are particularly well-suited for a low-downforce formula. Otherwise, the cars have been shown to be very slow thus far, especially in race trim.

Malaysia fastest laps:

2013: 1:39.199, Perez
2014: 1:43.066, Hamilton
Track record: 1:34.223, Juan Pablo Montoya

Australia fastest laps:

2013: 1:29.274, Raikkonen
2014: 1:32.478, Rosberg
Track record: 1:24.125

So, yeah. F1 is not going in the right direction these days.

So it''s not about as slow as GP2 but "direction" now. If reality doesn't match doom and gloom too bad for reality. Isn't it too early to speak about direction anyway when there are seconds to gain from new rules especially in aero department? Wouldn't waiting for 2015 or 2016 be more honest way of judging direction and not first three races?
And bringing 2004 to muddy up the subject, really? Yes more powerful engine 10 years ago made cars go faster, thanks. Secondly what fastest laps prove exactly (another cherry picked statistic)?

Your "right direction" is subjective and only personal preference, you should not forget about it, no golden standard in F1 but plenty of bad standards. It's low downforce only relatively. There are dozens of directions anyway: tyres, engines, tracks, finances, lobbying. One direction of F1 is customer car and three teams running it all.

[bhall]

[...]
Secondly what fastest laps prove exactly (another cherry picked statistic)?
[...]

I simply cannot take seriously anyone who calls fastest laps a "cherry picked statistic" within a conversation based purely on speed.

Sorry, kiddo. Better luck next time.

[Juzh]

2014 pole time 1:33.186
2013 pole time 1:32.330

just 0.8 sec slow with less df, 50kg extra, smaller engines and harder tyres

i dont think they slow

Bahrain is essentially a collection of straights that are particularly well-suited for a low-downforce formula. Otherwise, the cars have been shown to be very slow thus far, especially in race trim.

Malaysia fastest laps:

2013: 1:39.199, Perez
2014: 1:43.066, Hamilton
Track record: 1:34.223, Juan Pablo Montoya

Australia fastest laps:

2013: 1:29.274, Raikkonen
2014: 1:32.478, Rosberg
Track record: 1:24.125

So, yeah. F1 is not going in the right direction these days.

It's also on soft tires this year, which are 2s a lap faster, and is run at night. We all saw massive difference in performance when the temperature dropped.

[iotar__]

Since it's turned into what are your preferences, I don't mind "smaller" engines but fuel saving is ridiculous, unnecessary and doesn't belong in F1. I'm not sure if lap times are a good argument against it, type of racing it causes would be a better one. As for teams talking: it's the same to me if Newey complains about tyres and Wolff is announcing wonderful new technological F1.

I thought the initial point was: "F1 in 2014 will be significantly slower", nearing levels of GP2. It's not. We knew it wold be slower for obvious reasons but now discussion changed direction and I don't understand why. Why would it matter if lap times (let's say comparable but slower) are achieved thanks to top straight speed or down force?
OK fine, Bahrain is not representative but why would high-speed corners track (Silverstone) with less effective KERS be representative instead? How about the average of different tracks and some more data, maybe even from 2015. Do you really want to pretend that cars at the end of 2014 sent back to Bahrain wouldn't be faster than in March?

[ESPImperium]

The cars lost bloody 6 seconds from F1 2013 to F1 2014, around 2 or 3 seconds were claimed back in the pre season, at AUS the cars were roughly 3 seconds slower, the cars are now within a second of last years pole times at BAH. There have been figures of two to 5 seconds banded about on how much quicker the cars will be from AUS to ABD, the most reputable figures im looking at are about 3.5 to 4 seconds over the season.

Is F1 2014 slower at the moment, yes, but will it be quicker in the long run, i think so. Look at the tail end of the grid, Caterham and Marussia have made a massive stride from last year where they were about 3 to 4.5 seconds off the pace, now they are 2.5 to 3.5 in Q1, and in race pace they are now about 1.5 laps down on average and not the 3 or 4 they were over the past two years.

Im in agreement with Pat Symonds, lets talk the positives and not the negatives, the sport has levelled the playing field this year, there is major engineering innovation back in the sport, however there are areas that need fixed i will conceded. Please look at the positives like a resurgent Williams, a challenging Force India and a Mclaren that is coming back on track as well as the dominant factors of the past 5 years being broken. F1 is good, it just needs a little fettling to make it close again.

In my ideal situation, F1 was at its closest in the 2008-2009 seasons with the grids being as close at 2 seconds at the ends of those seasons, but id be happy with a 3 second grid spread in Quali as my ideal these days.

[siskue2005]

2014 pole time 1:33.186
2013 pole time 1:32.330

just 0.8 sec slow with less df, 50kg extra, smaller engines and harder tyres

i dont think they slow

Bahrain is essentially a collection of straights that are particularly well-suited for a low-downforce formula. Otherwise, the cars have been shown to be very slow thus far, especially in race trim.

Malaysia fastest laps:

2013: 1:39.199, Perez
2014: 1:43.066, Hamilton
Track record: 1:34.223, Juan Pablo Montoya

Australia fastest laps:

2013: 1:29.274, Raikkonen
2014: 1:32.478, Rosberg
Track record: 1:24.125

So, yeah. F1 is not going in the right direction these days.

Well first race without any restrictions for the merc
and here is the fastest laps in race
2013 Sebastian Vettel Red Bull Racing-Renault 55 16:36:49 200.938 1:36.961
2014 Nico Rosberg Mercedes 49 19:30:52 200.816 1:37.020

Dont think F1 is going in the wrong direction.

[bhall]

2014 pole time 1:33.186
2013 pole time 1:32.330

just 0.8 sec slow with less df, 50kg extra, smaller engines and harder tyres

i dont think they slow

Bahrain is essentially a collection of straights that are particularly well-suited for a low-downforce formula. Otherwise, the cars have been shown to be very slow thus far, especially in race trim.

Malaysia fastest laps:

2013: 1:39.199, Perez
2014: 1:43.066, Hamilton
Track record: 1:34.223, Juan Pablo Montoya

Australia fastest laps:

2013: 1:29.274, Raikkonen
2014: 1:32.478, Rosberg
Track record: 1:24.125

So, yeah. F1 is not going in the right direction these days.

Well first race without any restrictions for the merc
and here is the fastest laps in race
2013 Sebastian Vettel Red Bull Racing-Renault 55 16:36:49 200.938 1:36.961
2014 Nico Rosberg Mercedes 49 19:30:52 200.816 1:37.020

Dont think F1 is going in the wrong direction.

Now that's cherry picking. It skips right over my first statement as if it wasn't even there.

Congrats.

[siskue2005]

When did Bahrain become a low downforce track????

[bhall]

When did Bahrain become a low downforce track????

When Hermann Tilke made 70% of it perfectly straight, or roughly 3.8km out of 5.411km. A car doesn't need downforce to drive straight.

EDIT: Have some numbers.

Rough idea of current performance levels combined with the known trap-speed from qualifying.



The cars could have weighed two metric tons and still reached the same speed.

[siskue2005]

https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rct=j ... 7178,d.bmk

http://www.vivaf1.com/bahrain.php

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/f1-informati ... formation/

all the sources above and even more stating that Bahrain is Medium to high downforce, i dont know what are you trying to prove here

[bhall]

See: above