2014 too slow? (or not, as the case may be)

[siskue2005]

First off all Bahrain is a medium to high down force track...i think there is no dispute in that...there are more high speed corners here, having 15 KPH more than last year wont allow them to close the gap and having 50KG more with harder tyres and massively low downforce should surely slow them down....buy still they are just 0.8 tenths to last year

But according to you they should be massively fast in the first and third sector this year in order to gain laptime from last year...as being a "LOW DOWNFORCE" circuit according to you.

2013 Sector times and Speed traps


2014 Sector times and speed traps



i dont see any massive difference in straight line speeds in 3 sectors , and they are 15kph faster in straight
and also they are 0.5 sec slower in s2 which would account to increase in weight and loss of downforce

All in all they are surely going the right direction as the cars are very very difficult and challenging for the pilots to drive and also they are on par with the lap times of previous generation of cars/engines, and that too in just the third race....what can we expect in 10 , 15 races and next season!!

[Trocola]

This year the race was at night, with lower temperatures. Compare last year's race to this year's one is not the best of the comparisons

you can compare qualy from last year to this year's fp3, that was more or less at the same hour

[bhall]

First off all Bahrain is a medium to high down force track...i think there is no dispute in that...there are more high speed corners here, having 15 KPH more than last year wont allow them to close the gap and having 50KG more with harder tyres and massively low downforce should surely slow them down....buy still they are just 0.8 tenths to last year

[...]

I can dispute it easily with actual figures. Watch.

Bahrain (figures calculated from Nico Rosberg's trap-speed of 328.1km/h during Q3)
Start/finish straight length: 1090m
Turn 12 exit speed onto straight: 169km/h
Frontal area: 1.2m^2, estimate based upon regulations with DRS engaged
Mass: 701kg (691kg + 10kg fuel load)
Power: 730bhp (generous, our own Blanchimont calculated 708bhp)
Air density: 1.178kg/m^3, calculated from Manama's altitude of 5m, 23C temp, 45% relative humidity



Monaco (figures calculated from Mark Webber's trap-speed of 284.1km/h in 2013)
Start/finish straight length: 669m
Turn 18-19 exit speed onto straight: 108km/h
Frontal area: 1.2m^2, estimate based upon regulations with DRS engaged
Mass: 652kg (642kg + 10kg fuel load)
Power: 730bhp, estimate
Air density: 1.225kg/m^3, calculated from Monte Carlo's altitude of ~1-5m, 19C temp, 45% relative humidity



I can assure you the higher Cd value in Monaco isn't the result of cars towing a parachute; that's downforce.

The weight of a car is irrelevant beyond ~160km/h. From then on, it's all about power and drag, and that's precisely why Bahrain will always flatter low-downforce cars. It's ~3.8km worth of straights packed into a 5.411km circuit for which downforce is largely unnecessary.

I offer my sincerest apologies if these numbers don't say what you want them to say. But, I can't help that.

Here. Try it yourself.

[strad]

Lift and coast...It"s not racing.

[shamyakovic]

You talk as if lift and coast was invented only this season

[flmkane]

Lift and coast...It"s not racing.

Lift and coast was around even in the refueling era. It was a useful driving technique for low fuel strategies.

[strad]

Yes it was...some of the worst years. What we called Mobilgas Economy runs.
It ain't racin.

[WhiteBlue]

So, yeah. F1 is not going in the right direction these days.

That is one opinion which looks objective by the lot of figures which is being thrown around. What people sometimes forget is the purpose and the framework of the championship. It is a sporting and entertainment event and not a suicide pact. The power and performance must be limited by a formula to make the concept work. Hence it is impossible to always keep cutting the lap times and raising performance. That is a build in mechanism to the sport. The regulators cut performance and the teams claw it back.

The most reasonable people would agree to the evaluation that the cars are currently faster than we expected and that there is a lot of potential for improvement even this year. On top we learn that even on fuel critical tracks the best cars finish 5% under the current fuel allowance which shows that there are still performance reserves which will be uncovered in due time. Paddy Lowe even suggested that they take away anoth 5 kg of fuel for next year to curb performance.

I understand that there will always be people who gripe about new things. That is natural. I have very seldomly enjoyed such a good race as the 2014 Bahrain GP. Lets not forget that it used to be a procession which we used to call Borain. The new formula has shaken things up and shuffeled the cards which is good for the entertainment side of the sport.

My impression here is that the opinion leading people with gripes like Bernie and Luca simply follow their own agenda which has nothing to do with the issue of this thread. And then you have those who simply always want more speed, more power and more danger regardless of the facts. I don't take those people very serious. They are the same who cannot make the connection between the death toll of the sport and the regulatory safety level. When drivers and spectators die in other more dangerous series they bemoan the death of the poor sods and go back to their business of the day. F1 isn't run that way any more. And that is a good thing in my view.

[bhall]

[...]
It is a sporting and entertainment event and not a suicide pact.
[...]

That's a wee bit overdramatic, don't you think?

Needless to say, I don't agree with much of what you said. (Surprise, surprise.) However, I will admit I rather enjoyed the part where it ended.

The cars were consistently eight and nine seconds off record pace in Australia and Malaysia, respectively. You have to go all the way back to 1996 to find a slower fastest lap at Albert Park, and the fastest lap in Malaysia was the slowest ever recorded at the circuit, including wet races. It's one thing to hold speeds in check, but it's quite another take a step back into the previous century.

And there are still many more of those fuel-saving parades on tap. Bahrain was but an anomaly due to the start/stop nature of its layout.

Besides all that, we both know this isn't about keeping speeds in check anyway. If it were, there are far easier, and much cheaper, ways to go about it. Like super-duper hard tires, for instance.

No, this is just plain, old-fashioned marketing. "Road relevance." You know, something to part fools from their money.

EDIT: readability

[strad]

WB said

I have very seldomly enjoyed such a good race as the 2014 Bahrain GP.

Please, please tell me what y'all thought was sooo exciting or enjoyable?
Watching them parse their fuel or their tires?
Watching cars still unable to pass without the cooperation of the car ahead or contrived DRS push to pass crap?
Was it the truely memorable lap after lap of side by side dueling?
Please do tell me.
Do any of you still remember real racing?

[Lycoming]

Please do tell me.
Do any of you still remember real racing?

In F1, or in general?

[beelsebob]

WB said

I have very seldomly enjoyed such a good race as the 2014 Bahrain GP.

Please, please tell me what y'all thought was sooo exciting or enjoyable?
Watching them parse their fuel or their tires?

I saw nearly none of that in the entire race. No team really fuel saved, and we saw teams racing hard for many laps in a row.

Watching cars still unable to pass without the cooperation of the car ahead or contrived DRS push to pass crap?

What on earth are you talking about? Hamilton passed Rosberg many times, with zero cooperation, and zero DRS.

Was it the truely memorable lap after lap of side by side duelling?

Yes

Do any of you still remember real racing?

I can't remember any as exciting as Hamilton fighting Rosberg in all honesty, even the famous battle at Dijon was found wanting in comparison to this!

[Pierce89]

I can't remember any as exciting as Hamilton fighting Rosberg in all honesty, even the famous battle at Dijon was found wanting in comparison to this!

Actually, to my tastes Dijon 79 was much better, but this wasn't a bad race by any means.

[hollus]

But did you watch Dijon 79 live, or maybe just the highlight reels?
I agree than Bahrain 2014 might have been something of a one off, but the lap times where there, the top speed was there (and just wait 10 days!) and this highlight reel will need to be like 30 minutes long.

[Pierce89]

The cars lost bloody 6 seconds from F1 2013 to F1 2014, around 2 or 3 seconds were claimed back in the pre season, at AUS the cars were roughly 3 seconds slower, the cars are now within a second of last years pole times at BAH. There have been figures of two to 5 seconds banded about on how much quicker the cars will be from AUS to ABD, the most reputable figures im looking at are about 3.5 to 4 seconds over the season.

Is F1 2014 slower at the moment, yes, but will it be quicker in the long run, i think so. Look at the tail end of the grid, Caterham and Marussia have made a massive stride from last year where they were about 3 to 4.5 seconds off the pace, now they are 2.5 to 3.5 in Q1, and in race pace they are now about 1.5 laps down on average and not the 3 or 4 they were over the past two years.

Im in agreement with Pat Symonds, lets talk the positives and not the negatives, the sport has levelled the playing field this year, there is major engineering innovation back in the sport, however there are areas that need fixed i will conceded. Please look at the positives like a resurgent Williams, a challenging Force India and a Mclaren that is coming back on track as well as the dominant factors of the past 5 years being broken. F1 is good, it just needs a little fettling to make it close again.

In my ideal situation, F1 was at its closest in the 2008-2009 seasons with the grids being as close at 2 seconds at the ends of those seasons, but id be happy with a 3 second grid spread in Quali as my ideal these days.

The only thing I want to comment on here is " a resurgent Williams, a challennging Force India and a Mclaren that is coming back on track".

That's all motor. Given an equal motor, these three teams would be clearly behind Red Bull and Ferrari. So why is it a positive that lucky teams beat better faster chassis on a regular basis?