Best driver performance over a season of all time?

[Gerhard Berger]

No Webber has never been considered a qualifying ace...

I'm not sure when you started watching F1, but let's take a look at the years when he wasn't in the same machinery as Vettel, until 2008. Webber has always been considered a quali specialist in 2003-2008. Remember when, driving Jaguars, he would nearly grab pole?
Brazil 2003

TBH i hated the qualifying with fuel that we had in 2003-09, especially in the early years when qualifying weights were not published. It made comparisons more difficult. For example the Webber lap you posted from Nurburgring 2005 got him 3rd, his team mate was on pole, but we didn't know the fuel loads. It was speculated that Webber was carrying more fuel but we never found out because of the first corner incident. Even someone like Button who is not considered a quali specialist was able to put the BAR up in high places and even got a couple of poles.

[SectorOne]

I think so. For example, Trulli was also previously considered a very strong qualifier but he got hammered in qualifying by Kovaleinen in his final year in F1.

Power steering problems. Similar to Kimi which we now see is much stronger then his teammate.
The year before he was something like 4 tenths on average faster then Kova.

[The_Mauler]

How do you prove “Best driver performance over a season of all time?”
What do the stats says about it?
What it tells you are raw facts about what you measures. If I’m 3rd in a race, the statistics says only that i´m third and nothing else.
But people have the tendency to add subjective values to what you measures and then present it as facts. Nothing strange or unusual with that, it´s normal but not correct!

You normally use stats just to prove your point or to strengthen your case in the mission to convince somebody. If I wants to prove that Michael Schumacher was a better driver than Ayrton Senna I add some stats that strengthen my case.

- But is more valid just because of stats pointing in my direction?

No it´s not! It´s just a comparison of numbers and nothing else.
It´s also a good indication of my own beliefs. So here it comes!

I have compared Michael Schumacher and Ayrton Senna from the drivers perspective and because of that didn´t include the fact that MS 2nd place 1997 was taken away from him.

- First, from their whole career and complete seasons without judges calls (1997):
- Second, from the first 10 years of their career that both conducted without interruption:

(ncs=not a complete season) MS 1991 and 1999, AS 1994)

Michael Schumacher career records:

1,69 Average WC postion from 1 – 3.
1,31 Average WC position, except ncs.
41% W.Champion(first place) %, except ncs. (Without Mercedes years 50%)
59% W.Champion and Runnner up %, except ncs. (Without Mercedes years 71%)
76% WC position 1-3 in %, except ncs. (Without Mercedes years 86%)

Ayrton Senna career records:

1,67 Average WC postion from 1 – 3.
3,1 Average WC position, except ncs.
30% W.Champion(first place) %, except ncs.
50% W.Champion or Runnner up %, except ncs.
60% WC position 1-3 in %, except ncs.

As we can see, Ayrtons numbers are slightly better regarding average WC position 1 – 3, but overall Michaels numbers are devastating much better!

Some claims that if Ayrton would have had the possibility, he would have much better numbers than Michael.

Ok, then we just reduces Michaels years to make them comparable with Ayrtons? We compare the first 10 years of both, 10 years without interruption from a half season or injury nor from judges calls.

Let´s do it!

Michaels 10 first years without interuption.
1,5 Average WC postion from 1 – 3.
2 Average WC position, except ncs.
50% W.Champion(first place) %, except ncs.
70% W.Champion and Runnner up %, except ncs.
90% WC position 1-3 in %, except ncs.

Ayrton Senna 10 first years without interuption:

1,67 Average WC postion from 1 – 3.
3,1 Average WC position, except ncs.
30% W.Champion(first place) %, except ncs.
50% W.Champion or Runnner up %, except ncs.
60% WC position 1-3 in %, except ncs.

Well, now it looks even worse from Ayrton point of view. Michael beats him at every single position!

But the only thing the numbers tells you is that, Michael Schumacher was more than successful. He dominated the formula one for a long period of time and to a much higher extent than anybody before him did.

[Ciro Pabón]

Oh, for the love of Pete. Fangio, 1957.

Three hat tricks in the first three races, a mechanical failure retirement in Britain and then, the most dominant race in history, German GP, 1957, the race that actually made F1 famous.

Enough to say that he was 50 seconds behind the Ferraris after an horrible pit stop.

Then he proceeded to break the track record in one of the last laps, a mere 11 seconds faster than Collin and Hawthorne Ferraris.

That's not dominance, that's Definitive Destruction, Horrible Humiliation, Perfect Performance, Divine Driving and and Blatant Bossiness, dear Peter Parker. At Nefarious Nürburgring, nothing less.

As for statistics, mehhh... there you go, with the records that still stay, after what? Sixty years?:

Winning percentage: 46% (24 wins in 52 races)

Drivers seem to lose one lap pace once they get older...

Yeah, you wish. I think I haven't lost pace in the circuits I've raced for 35 years, sennafan...

It's only after 20 laps that my ribs start to hurt...

So, over one lap you have this stats for El Chueco:

Pole percentage: 56% (29 poles in 52 races)

Front row starts: 92% (48 front row starts in 52 races)

Show me a 92% number in anything worthy and I concede I'm wrong.

How many drivers deserve a statue?


From the horse's mouth:

"Fangio is on a level much higher than I see myself. What he did stands alone and what we have achieved is also unique. I have such respect for what he achieved. You can't take a personality like Fangio and compare him with what has happened today. There is not even the slightest comparison."

-- Michael Schumacher -- (on winning more championships than El Maestro).

Yeah, I know. Actually, this guy won the first GP I went to... and he has several statues

[munudeges]

"That boy Clark...is the greatest racing driver in the world" - Juan Manuel Fangio, Monza 1967

[FoxHound]

Note the date....1967.
Fangio was talking of current race drivers. Besides, was Fangio ever one to speak highly of himself?

Saying that, Jim Clark was a phenomenon. One of few.

[munudeges]

Fangio knew what exactly he was saying when he made that comment, but I always have a little chuckle when that Fangio performance at the Nurburgring gets brought up, because Clark had several performances like that that he never talked about largely because it wasn't in his nature.

Monza 1967 was an absolute tour de force and then there was Spa 1963 when he drove the car one-handed because of a slipping gear lever.

[tim|away]

I always prefer to approach this kind of subject a bit more neutrally (if at all possible), so let's try to get some numbers on the table. The driver's performance is first and foremost measured by how he performs against his teammate. How good (or bad) that teammate turns out to be is a completely different subject.

My query required for the driver to finish in the top 3 of the WDC and for his teammate to have participated in all races of the season. So let's take a look at team mate battles over the years and you can read into it whatever your heart desires.

[JimClarkFan]

I always prefer to approach this kind of subject a bit more neutrally (if at all possible), so let's try to get some numbers on the table. The driver's performance is first and foremost measured by how he performs against his teammate. How good (or bad) that teammate turns out to be is a completely different subject.

My query required for the driver to finish in the top 3 of the WDC and for his teammate to have participated in all races of the season. So let's take a look at team mate battles over the years and you can read into it whatever your heart desires.

http://s28.postimg.org/uufm9vfdp/f1_teammate_battle.png

Hi Tim, I like where your head is at.

One problem as I see it though is the points system now is very different from the point system a couple of years ago, anyway you could factor this in?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Fo ... ng_systems

[flynfrog]

I always prefer to approach this kind of subject a bit more neutrally (if at all possible), so let's try to get some numbers on the table. The driver's performance is first and foremost measured by how he performs against his teammate. How good (or bad) that teammate turns out to be is a completely different subject.

My query required for the driver to finish in the top 3 of the WDC and for his teammate to have participated in all races of the season. So let's take a look at team mate battles over the years and you can read into it whatever your heart desires.

http://s28.postimg.org/uufm9vfdp/f1_teammate_battle.png

that just shows you have a crappy teamate

[Just_a_fan]

I think you need to look at who won titles whilst sharing a team with another champion. Most of the "greats" won whilst having a less than stellar team mate. Even Fangio only won one title with a champion as team mate and that was Farina. Otherwise he had Moss a couple of times (the best driver never to win the title as he's sometimes known) and even then the team had several drivers.

The other "greats" never had true competition - as in they shared a great car with another driver who could win the title too. All except Senna and Prost. Oh, and D Hill had the following champion in the garage with him. Hamilton almost did it in his rookie year against the reigning champion, of course.

Schumacher never had a truly worthwhile competitor in the garage with him (Rubens is a lovely chap but...). He had some absolutely amazing cars, especially the Ferrari 5 (the ones that won the titles), but he never had to look across the garage and worry. Interestingly, when he did have some decent opposition (Rosberg) he was made to look rather ordinary.
Vettel never had a title winner in the other car during his 4 wins. Webber is a great guy but...
Clark, Stewart, Lauda (although he shared with Prost one year), Piquet (he did share with Mansell for one title) etc.
Alonso had a nice guy next to him for his two titles.

The list goes on.

The only drivers who really had to beat someone as good as them in equal machinery were Senna and Prost. And they did it by being polar opposites from each other. One was all cool assessment where the other was all emotion and raw talent.

For that reason, I rank Senna and Prost as the greatest champions over a season (if not necessarily the best racers (in the case of Prost at least)).

[Kingshark]

I will only rank the season performances that I have actually seen and analysed (from 2002 until the present day).

These are my criteria of a great season:

1. Convincingly beat a rated teammate.
2. Very few, if any off-weekends.
3. Very few, if any costly mistakes.
4. Consistently performed to the potential of the car.

Alonso's 2006 championship campaign is the closest thing I have ever seen to a perfect season from any driver. Some seasons from the likes of Vettel and Schumacher follow closely.

[Kingshark]

This is how I'd rank the 12 championship campaigns from 2002 to 2013 (from most to least perfect):

1. Alonso's 2006
2. Vettel's 2013
3. Schumacher's 2002
4. Alonso's 2005
5. Vettel's 2011
6. Schumacher's 2004
7. Raikkonen's 2007
8. Vettel's 2012
9. Button's 2009 (under-appreciated)
10. Vettel's 2010
11. Schumacher's 2003
12. Hamilton's 2008 (far too many mistakes)

Some of the best non-WDC campaigns:

1. Alonso's 2012
2. Hamilton's 2012
3. Raikkonen's 2005
4. Hamilton's 2007
5. Kubica's 2008
6. Alonso's 2011
7. Raikkonen's 2003
8. Button's 2011
9. Rosberg's 2010
10. Kubica's 2010

[L.ARAGON]

Alain Prost in 1984, '85 and '86
MS in 1994, '95 and '96 (although I never liked him)
Alonso in 2006 and 2012

Hamilton was also quite impressive in 2007 and Senna in 1988

[L.ARAGON]

Note the date....1967.
Fangio was talking of current race drivers. Besides, was Fangio ever one to speak highly of himself?

Saying that, Jim Clark was a phenomenon. One of few.

I have grown to consider Clark and Ronnie Petersson as the fastest drivers of all time, but I have never watched them racing.

From the drivers I have witnessed I was more impressed by the early Alain Prost, MS and Alonso/Hamilton.

Prost's pace was impressive in his early years. He destroyed Lauda in '84 and '85 and Roseberg in '86 who was considered at a time one of the fastest drivers in the world. Later it seems that he took a different approach to racing, similar to Lauda's.
Still, when conditions were perfect for him, he could be much faster than even A.Senna (for example French GP in 1988)
Senna had a much better car feeling and control, so when conditions were not perfect (rain for example) or th car was not perfect he was much faster than Prost. But Prost could be faster when everything was on his way (perfect car, perfect racing conditionos) because his driving style was much smoother, similar to Clark's.

MS took racing to another level, a new more complete generation. It is impressive how he dominated in 94 and 95 when he did not have the best car and how he took the fight to the last race in 97 and 98 against much faster cars. In '92 in the old V8 Benetton he was more often than not faster than Senna in the much more powerful Honda V12

Alonso/Hamilton the fastest in the modern era, I cannot tell who has the upper hand in terms of raw speed