McLaren MP4-29 Mercedes

[dren]

I'm going to guess they will remove the butterfly suspension and go for a more convential layout. They will then likely rework the engine cover and cooling exhaust to maximise airflow around and to the rear. That is what the well performing teams have done.

[trinidefender]

Either way can you provide some evidence to back up your claims.

It is interesting, that you ask for evidence for the rather clear suspension change and its problems while this thread is spoiled by wild speculations round butterflys.

None of that is actually evidence that their interconnected system isn't working well. Many of your views about interconnected suspension yes are true but also very simplistic.

Actually they did give a few reasons, the roll hoop was too heavy, in their eyes, the nose was to low for the aero they were looking for and few other reasons I cannot recall off of memory.

You aren't actually giving any evidence, you are just pointing out deficiencies in the car then saying (because it is your opinion) that it is all due to one thing. Until you get actual numbers please don't state things as actual fact. You may be partially correct but we don't know for sure. That's why I don't tout things I say as fact.

Back to the car, personally I think they will be bringing updates to the diffuser, rear bodywork, different shaping to the butterfly suspension arms, I think they will keep them but time will tell and maybe a new front wing.

One key difference between McLarens front wing and other teams own is the Y250 vortex coming off of the front wing. McLarens front wing seems the generate two main vortices coming off of the inside of the wing. I wouldn't be surprised if they changed it to look a little more like ferrari where the two upper elements join at the inside tip to produce one larger vortex instead of two smaller vortices like McLaren currently uses with the front wing.

[basti313]

McLaren now has a lot of Lotus guys in their ranks, Lotus being one of the teams with one of the better FRIC systems in previous years.

You are right, the Lotus guys should help in this. But I do not think the problem is the system itself. Even Marussia has one working...
The problem is to set it up right for every circuit and that means you need a lot of experience with the actual car, with its suspension. This is why changing to such a system with changing the suspension completely spoiled last year and changing the front axle again spoils all the experience.

I'm going to guess they will remove the butterfly suspension and go for a more convential layout. They will then likely rework the engine cover and cooling exhaust to maximise airflow around and to the rear. That is what the well performing teams have done.

If it is more efficient to design the cooling without attention on the butterflys they could do so even with the butterflys on. So I would rather believe in a change of the outlets but with the butterflys still mounted as they tried a single butterfly (so just reduced effect) in the last test which could be similar to the butterflys without hot air.

Either way can you provide some evidence to back up your claims.

It is interesting, that you ask for evidence for the rather clear suspension change and its problems while this thread is spoiled by wild speculations round butterflys.

None of that is actually evidence that their interconnected system isn't working well.

Do you have any evidence for anything else than the suspension that isn't working well?
The usual "it needs more downforce" is rather boring when a car is slow, especially when it has tire warming issues at the front.

Many of your views about interconnected suspension yes are true but also very simplistic.

Can you show any non simplistic post in this thread?

Actually they did give a few reasons, the roll hoop was too heavy, in their eyes, the nose was to low for the aero they were looking for and few other reasons I cannot recall off of memory.

And you really think these are the reasons why they did not get the setup right through the whole season and tried radical setup changes at the end of the season?
Do you have any evidence for issues that cause the setup problems other than suspension issues?

You aren't actually giving any evidence, you are just pointing out deficiencies in the car then saying (because it is your opinion) that it is all due to one thing. Until you get actual numbers please don't state things as actual fact. You may be partially correct but we don't know for sure. That's why I don't tout things I say as fact.
....

Back to the car, personally...

So I have to put "personally" in front of every sentence to avoid your evidence nonsense?

[trinidefender]

basti313 the point i am trying to make is that you took somebody else's post, said it was wrong out and out and referred them to your previous post. Claimed it HAD to be the interconnected suspension system, as if you are a suspension expert for any of these F1 race teams and just dismissed their idea totally.

[basti313]

basti313 the point i am trying to make is that you took somebody else's post, said it was wrong out and out and referred them to your previous post.

I do not want to go further in a personal discourse, but I think you get something very wrong or I did not make it clear enough.
I answered to a very good post from Dipesh1995 to put in some detail to explain the problems. Then I answered a speculation of megasyxx with the point, that the suspension problem answers the question why they performed good in the opener better.
Where did I say anything was wrong out and out?

Claimed it HAD to be the interconnected suspension system, as if you are a suspension expert for any of these F1 race teams and just dismissed their idea totally.

Well there are two possibilities:
1.We close the thread till the next race
2.We speculate if they will bring a new front wing
3.We try to put the bits and pieces together

I do not like 1 and 2 and 3 says it has to be the interconnected suspension.

[trinidefender]

basti313 the point i am trying to make is that you took somebody else's post, said it was wrong out and out and referred them to your previous post.

I do not want to go further in a personal discourse, but I think you get something very wrong or I did not make it clear enough.
I answered to a very good post from Dipesh1995 to put in some detail to explain the problems. Then I answered a speculation of megasyxx with the point, that the suspension problem answers the question why they performed good in the opener better.
Where did I say anything was wrong out and out?

Claimed it HAD to be the interconnected suspension system, as if you are a suspension expert for any of these F1 race teams and just dismissed their idea totally.

Well there are two possibilities:
1.We close the thread till the next race
2.We speculate if they will bring a new front wing
3.We try to put the bits and pieces together

I do not like 1 and 2 and 3 says it has to be the interconnected suspension.

3 just says that it can be any number of factors. I personally think it is more of a factor of lack of rear downforce as a result of the butterflies working better at low speed as to how much they help the diffuser relative to their benefit at high speed. That combined with a bulky rear end with the tunnels etc.

[flyboy2160]

I've moved some general update posts to the Team thread. We're going to try to keep the car threads focused on actual parts, not about general updates or about vague, hypothetical part updates. When the updates become real parts, they can be discussed in the car hardware threads.

[BorisTheBlade]

If it is more efficient to design the cooling without attention on the butterflys they could do so even with the butterflys on.

IMHO this is overly simplified. The butterflies will also have an influence on the upstream airflow. So it should be of significance to any new cooling solution if it was designed with them in mind or not.

[Thunder]

So according to this :
http://www.motorsport-total.com/f1/news ... 42402.html
and this
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 13262.html

McLaren intends to keep the Butterfly suspension as it works as they planned it and the Car is built around these Elements.
Driving without them in Bahrain was just back to back testing to check Wind Tunnel Correlation as they use the Toyota Wind Tunnel whith which Correlation was a Problem for Ferrari last Year.

Edit: AMuS states further that the Mobil Fuel isn't on Par with the Petronas Fuel used by Merc, Williams and FI. That costs Power and lowers Fuel efficiency.

[dren]

So according to this :
http://www.motorsport-total.com/f1/news ... 42402.html
and this
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 13262.html

McLaren intends to keep the Butterfly suspension as it works as they planned it and the Car is built around these Elements.
Driving without them in Bahrain was just back to back testing to check Wind Tunnel Correlation as they use the Toyota Wind Tunnel whith which Correlation was a Problem for Ferrari last Year.

Edit: AMuS states further that the Mobil Fuel isn't on Par with the Petronas Fuel used by Merc, Williams and FI. That costs Power and lowers Fuel efficiency.

Mclaren is the worst Mercedes powered car. The fuel isn't the reason. Better fuel will help, certainly, but I do not see a change in fuel improving the lap times by the gap that is needed to Williams and FI.

The car has a lack of DF. What causes that - aero design, aero stability over a lap which is chassis and aero set-up which is chassis driven.

The car is a bulky mess at the rear. If the entire car was designed around the butterfly suspension, then the car is most likely hampered for the season. They will have to develop down a path that likely isn't ideal. I'd say bite the bullet now, change and develop for next year.

[dren]

If it is more efficient to design the cooling without attention on the butterflys they could do so even with the butterflys on.

IMHO this is overly simplified. The butterflies will also have an influence on the upstream airflow. So it should be of significance to any new cooling solution if it was designed with them in mind or not.

That is likely why they are not removing the butterflies. The internal packaging and cooling would have to be reworked.

Either that or the butterflies are really giving them good performance and the rest of the car is sh!t.

[ringo]

I don't like this "designed around" talk. The cars aren't built that way. I think the engineers intend to say that those elements have priority because of their effectiveness but to say a car is designed around a wishbone takes things a bit too far.

They need a new front wing, new engine covers. The need some new aero guys too. The ones that are working on it now are at their intellectual limits.

[CjC]

Looks like they are keeping the suspension arms as they are:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/113631

[Jef Patat]

I don't like this "designed around" talk. The cars aren't built that way. I think the engineers intend to say that those elements have priority because of their effectiveness but to say a car is designed around a wishbone takes things a bit too far.

They need a new front wing, new engine covers. The need some new aero guys too. The ones that are working on it now are at their intellectual limits.

I get your point but it's just a way of talking about it, from the article:

Boullier: "The car has been developed around this device so we have to keep developing the car as it is now."

[basti313]

I don't like this "designed around" talk. The cars aren't built that way. I think the engineers intend to say that those elements have priority because of their effectiveness but to say a car is designed around a wishbone takes things a bit too far.

They need a new front wing, new engine covers. The need some new aero guys too. The ones that are working on it now are at their intellectual limits.

I get your point but it's just a way of talking about it, from the article:

Boullier: "The car has been developed around this device so we have to keep developing the car as it is now."

I think the disadvantages of the butterflies are only regarding the suspension when it comes to stiffness, size and weight. And this suspension has been clearly build around the butterflies. And this is what Boullier means....whereas I would not believe anything Boullier says, as he is one of the absolute Pros in F1 in saying nothing important about the car as it can help a contender.

I really do not get the "build around" when it comes to internal packing and cooling. Especially as the usage of cooling air is much overrated in this forums. The main aspect in vehicle cooling is still cooling and reducing drag. Far behind there is some usage...but no one is really compromising anything for that usage except RB. Just look at the high exits in the Merc...