McLaren MP4-29 Mercedes

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turbof1
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Re: McLaren MP4-29 Mercedes

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But the question still is the same: Is this pressure right behind the cooling exits higher with or without butterflies? And you are, again, not answering that question in any useful way.
It's higher. And I already gave you the reason:
The problem is that the suspension blocks the transition of the high pressure air coming out of the cooling outlets to lower pressure surrounding air (phsysics 101: airflow goes from high pressure to low pressure). This normally helps in extracting the hot air out of the cooling outlets and makes the whole cooling outlet more efficient. The suspension blocks this, atleast for a part.
Because you have the butterfly suspension effectively blocking the transition high pressure air - low(er) pressure air, air coming out of the cooling outlet doesn't get accelerated anymore. Effectively, this slows down the velocity (compared to a non-blocking suspension, where the transition accelerates the air closer to the faster moving air). Lower velocity means higher pressure. These are simple aero rules.

This is also exactly the reason why mclaren wanted the butterfly suspension: it blocks this transition, creates more high pressure on top of the diffuser, and keeps the low pressure air behind the suspension low.

You haven't yet given your view on what the butterfly suspension effectively does (and please try to not quote this seperately; just put it at the end of your text). Also if you think that I'm wrong, then elaborate on it. We both will not get any further with sentences like "this isn't physics" "this isn't useful".
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basti313
basti313
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Re: McLaren MP4-29 Mercedes

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turbof1 wrote: 1.
Because you have the butterfly suspension effectively blocking the transition high pressure air - low(er) pressure air, air coming out of the cooling outlet doesn't get accelerated anymore. Effectively, this slows down the velocity (compared to a non-blocking suspension, where the transition accelerates the air closer to the faster moving air). Lower velocity means higher pressure. These are simple aero rules.

2. This is also exactly the reason why mclaren wanted the butterfly suspension: it blocks this transition, creates more high pressure on top of the diffuser, and keeps the low pressure air behind the suspension low.

3. Speaking of ignoring because it doesn't fit your opinion: you haven't yet given your view on what the butterfly suspension effectively does (and please try to not quote this seperately; just put it at the end of your text). The most frustrating of all is you typically only answered in the following style: "no it isnt" "this is against physics" "this is not useful". Well if you think so, educate me instead of just dismissing it.
I hate answering everything in one piece, because it is just unclear. I try it and at least put in some numbers in your quote just not to mix things up:
Regarding point 1 you are explaining things that are very clear but still do not give the connection. I think we both know, that we are not discussing among stupids. Thus, we both know about the low pressure behind the bodywork round the cooling exits. And we both know about the blocking of the butterflies.
But now comes the point where we have the problem: You say, that the blocking is so big that it raises the pressure in the whole region between butterfly and cooling exit. For me this is wrong: The low pressure region is defined by the bodywork. Neglecting any turbulent air and the butterflies, the flow would be asymptotic to the floor behind the bodywork, defining the low pressure area, before it would be pulled upward by the upwash of wing and diffusor.
Now with the butterflies: The flow would still be asymptotic to the floor behind the bodywork in a reasonable area. Later at the butterflies it gets directed upwards/downwards.
If you wanted to destroy the low pressure zone, which is there just because the car moves, you need air coming from the butterflies.
So, still the question: How can this blocked air reach more than 10cm in front of the butterflies when the car is moving?

For me it is clear, that the low pressure zone is already destroyed far ahead of the butterflies because of the air coming from above and below the cooling air exits. Thus I think regarding point 2 the overall function of the butterflies can be seen as blocking, but in a very small region and like at every wing with a netto zero effect on the pressure in front of it. The small guides next to the crash structure are needed to extract some use from this blocking...another sign that the blocking is rather small.

Now the final point 3: I see the butterflies similar to the beam wing mainly as a device helping diffusor and rear wing upwash. Guiding hot air blown rather on their upper side into the upwash of the rear wing and producing a small low pressure zone to help the diffusor with its upwash.
Last edited by basti313 on 29 Apr 2014, 00:06, edited 1 time in total.
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trinidefender
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Re: McLaren MP4-29 Mercedes

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Can you two take this back and forth argument somewhere else? It is filling the thread and you guys are only repeating your arguments over and over. Especially considering one of the participants of this back and forth tennis match is a mod only makes it worse. Maybe create a new topic with those posts in the aerodynamics section?

Jef Patat
Jef Patat
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Re: McLaren MP4-29 Mercedes

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trinidefender wrote:Can you two take this back and forth argument somewhere else? It is filling the thread and you guys are only repeating your arguments over and over. Especially considering one of the participants of this back and forth tennis match is a mod only makes it worse. Maybe create a new topic with those posts in the aerodynamics section?
Maybe that's not a stupid idea, it fits the new idea of splitting things of into separate threads.

basti313's impression might not be that wrong. And neighther might be the impression of turbof1 and me. basti is coming back to his idea that the pressure zone in front of the butterflies does not stretch that far forward as we think. I think of them as some kind of a bleeding airdam. Checking google for airdam cfd together with the supposed knowledge of the rear floor flows leads me to think that the pressure zone influences the air farther forward than the 10 cm of basti. I don't think you can compare the pressure zone in front of them with the (virtually non existing) pressure zone in front of a front wing at all.

And again, I cannot back up my thinking in any way. I'm willing to accept his idea as a valid alternative, it might be just different, not necessarily wrong. But in his thinking I don't understand why the cooling outlets are placed at that location. No other team does this. (And no, I don't agree on FI, they are smaller and more central). And no other team has done this in the past.

basti313
basti313
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Re: McLaren MP4-29 Mercedes

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trinidefender wrote:Can you two take this back and forth argument somewhere else? It is filling the thread and you guys are only repeating your arguments over and over. Especially considering one of the participants of this back and forth tennis match is a mod only makes it worse. Maybe create a new topic with those posts in the aerodynamics section?
Is there anything wrong in "filling" the thread? Any other interesting things at the moment?

I tried to make a new argument with the lack of air argument in the last post. Maybe we got stuck in the discussion, because looking at the rear end with rather static pressure zones is just not convincing. So maybe going back to the source of these low and high pressure zones gives us conclusions.
Jef Patat wrote: But in his thinking I don't understand why the cooling outlets are placed at that location. No other team does this. (And no, I don't agree on FI, they are smaller and more central). And no other team has done this in the past.
Maybe thess pictures shed some light:
http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... 79#p503579
http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... 66#p494166
On the first one you can see the rear end without butterflies. If you look below the rear wishbones you can see this large, open space between the gearbox and the rear tire. On the second one you see this open space from the front. They have one "flowing" shape from the side and from the sidepod down to the gearbox, which is passing below the cooling outlets.
For me this shape is the reason for the high cooling outlets and they are so high, because they did not compromise the coke bottle shape at all.
Here http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... 74#p494774 you can see, that RedBull is doing more or less the same but not as extreme and with a central air exit to keep the exits at the side smaller.
Don`t russel the hamster!

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turbof1
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Re: McLaren MP4-29 Mercedes

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basti313 wrote:
turbof1 wrote: 1.
Because you have the butterfly suspension effectively blocking the transition high pressure air - low(er) pressure air, air coming out of the cooling outlet doesn't get accelerated anymore. Effectively, this slows down the velocity (compared to a non-blocking suspension, where the transition accelerates the air closer to the faster moving air). Lower velocity means higher pressure. These are simple aero rules.

2. This is also exactly the reason why mclaren wanted the butterfly suspension: it blocks this transition, creates more high pressure on top of the diffuser, and keeps the low pressure air behind the suspension low.

3. Speaking of ignoring because it doesn't fit your opinion: you haven't yet given your view on what the butterfly suspension effectively does (and please try to not quote this seperately; just put it at the end of your text). The most frustrating of all is you typically only answered in the following style: "no it isnt" "this is against physics" "this is not useful". Well if you think so, educate me instead of just dismissing it.
I hate answering everything in one piece, because it is just unclear. I try it and at least put in some numbers in your quote just not to mix things up:
Regarding point 1 you are explaining things that are very clear but still do not give the connection. I think we both know, that we are not discussing among stupids. Thus, we both know about the low pressure behind the bodywork round the cooling exits. And we both know about the blocking of the butterflies.
But now comes the point where we have the problem: You say, that the blocking is so big that it raises the pressure in the whole region between butterfly and cooling exit. For me this is wrong: The low pressure region is defined by the bodywork. Neglecting any turbulent air and the butterflies, the flow would be asymptotic to the floor behind the bodywork, defining the low pressure area, before it would be pulled upward by the upwash of wing and diffusor.
Now with the butterflies: The flow would still be asymptotic to the floor behind the bodywork in a reasonable area. Later at the butterflies it gets directed upwards/downwards.
If you wanted to destroy the low pressure zone, which is there just because the car moves, you need air coming from the butterflies.
So, still the question: How can this blocked air reach more than 10cm in front of the butterflies when the car is moving?

For me it is clear, that the low pressure zone is already destroyed far ahead of the butterflies because of the air coming from above and below the cooling air exits. Thus I think regarding point 2 the overall function of the butterflies can be seen as blocking, but in a very small region and like at every wing with a netto zero effect on the pressure in front of it. The small guides next to the crash structure are needed to extract some use from this blocking...another sign that the blocking is rather small.

Now the final point 3: I see the butterflies similar to the beam wing mainly as a device helping diffusor and rear wing upwash. Guiding hot air blown rather on their upper side into the upwash of the rear wing and producing a small low pressure zone to help the diffusor with its upwash.
This a very good post. I actually had to read it several times in order to visualise it properly.

I think I'll be drawing this up. Somewhere somehow I don't feel it adding up. I'll be doing that later, no time atm.
#AeroFrodo

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mclaren111
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Re: McLaren MP4-29 Mercedes

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To me the car looks as good as the others, but obviously something is not working. It can not be just aerodynamics. Any ideas ??

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Thunder
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Re: McLaren MP4-29 Mercedes

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mclaren111 wrote:To me the car looks as good as the others, but obviously something is not working. It can not be just aerodynamics. Any ideas ??
Why can't it be that the Car is simply lacking Downforce? Everything else seems pretty good to me. They can gain a bit from Fuel, Software and Setup Work. But i think mechanically there is nothing wrong with the Car. They just need more Downforce.
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basti313
basti313
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Re: McLaren MP4-29 Mercedes

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Thunders wrote:
mclaren111 wrote:To me the car looks as good as the others, but obviously something is not working. It can not be just aerodynamics. Any ideas ??
Why can't it be that the Car is simply lacking Downforce? Everything else seems pretty good to me. They can gain a bit from Fuel, Software and Setup Work. But i think mechanically there is nothing wrong with the Car. They just need more Downforce.
Everybody needs more downforce. This is F1 racing...

Actually I do not think the McLaren guys are bad in aero and get the numbers wrong with silly CFD only tries like HRT, have problems to get new parts like teams with small budgets or do not understand their wind tunnel. So I think the problem is not simple aero. Especially as they put more effort into the rear end aero than most other teams.
Don`t russel the hamster!

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turbof1
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Re: McLaren MP4-29 Mercedes

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Well, I always knew Button was an oiled machine, but as far as I know he isn't actually part of the car. Maybe he should drive with one hand and use the other to form a downforce creating wing?

I'm moving the Button stuff out of the car thread right to the team thread.

Oh, and this:
Image
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Edax
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Re: McLaren MP4-29 Mercedes

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Thunders wrote:
mclaren111 wrote:To me the car looks as good as the others, but obviously something is not working. It can not be just aerodynamics. Any ideas ??
Why can't it be that the Car is simply lacking Downforce? Everything else seems pretty good to me. They can gain a bit from Fuel, Software and Setup Work. But i think mechanically there is nothing wrong with the Car. They just need more Downforce.
I'm struggling here. I'm no aerodynamist but I' believe the consensus on the butterfy suspension was that it was a trade off between drag and rear downforce. So I was expecting a car that would be good in the corners but suffer on the straights.

Yet the car does not appear draggy and Button specifically reports a lack of rear downforce. For me that would only make sense if they, i) bypass the suspension mostly ( no net effect) or ii) compensate the drag and downforce by the suspension by something else (for instance by running a low DF rear wing.)

Could that be the case, or am I thinking too simplistic here?

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Thunder
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Re: McLaren MP4-29 Mercedes

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basti313 wrote: Everybody needs more downforce. This is F1 racing...
Of course, but Macca needs to get to a level where they have around the same Downforce as Merc / RB and even Ferrari in the first Place. That's what i meant. They need more than the others and they know that.
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mclaren111
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Re: McLaren MP4-29 Mercedes

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I agree on the suspension - so much less bumpy/hard than last year. The only other possibility is that the wind tunnel and CFD correlation problems are NOT solved - irrespective of what they claim.

wesley123
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Re: McLaren MP4-29 Mercedes

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mclaren111 wrote:The only other possibility is that the wind tunnel and CFD correlation problems are NOT solved - irrespective of what they claim.
Doubtful as they are running the updates they bring.
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

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turbof1
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Re: McLaren MP4-29 Mercedes

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First of all, a BIG applause to all of you who followed our request to make posts about the car. They are all about what's on the car, and what you can touch and see.

Unfortunaly, there's the slight issue: it's the wrong car... Life's a b*tch aint it.

If it's any comfort to you guys, it brought your favorite moderator a nice line for the caption competition.

Anyway, moved to the team thread.
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