2014 Engine Homolgation

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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FoxHound
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Joined: 23 Aug 2012, 16:50

Re: 2014 too slow? (or not, as the case may be)

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turbof1 wrote:From what I get, the manufacturers are infact allowed to make updates. It seems the FIA and the engine providers have a hidden deal with eachother. We often hear Renault bringing updates, and not just software ones. So even though the rules speak against it, there is some leaway.
Exactly.

Which is why talk of F1 being a constructors championship, with no constructors is ridiculous. It's not different to the V8 frozen engine engine Formula.
Mercedes had an initial advantage, and it eroded over time with Renault and Ferrari making changes and utilising initiative to close the gap.....in a frozen formula.
Now, teams can still change basic design components for next year. And they can also use various software codes to improve engine power and delivery, something the autosport article quotes Renault as saying.
Also, since January when the Renault PU was 70 bhp down on the Merc unit, they have almost halved the deficit to 40bhp with the introduction of a new spec engine.
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2014/04/n ... e-the-gap/

Remi Taffin had this to say.
We have been working on the energy management per lap, particularly in the slow corners. We know we are missing out on the straights but these new steps have given us greater traction in the turns, which should in turn extend tyre life and give greater flexibility on strategies.”
I think the problem here is if a team dominates, and you don't dig, you complain. Or you blame the rules.
But in the context of the last 5/6 years, it's as you were I'm afraid.

And to round my point off, if we are seeing an initial slow period in the new rule set, why not help by making boost pressures higher and allow greater energy recovery stores to be used as seen fit by the driver?
This would not require a huge shift or investment, and the cars would go a couple seconds a lap quicker if the tyre provided is up to task.
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Paul
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Joined: 25 Feb 2009, 19:33

Re: 2014 too slow? (or not, as the case may be)

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They are already being given the boost as the fuel allowance is likely to be reduced in the future, so it's just a question of this initial boost being big enough and what will be the performance gain by the end of the season, maybe it will seem just right.

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FoxHound
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Joined: 23 Aug 2012, 16:50

Re: 2014 too slow? (or not, as the case may be)

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Paul wrote:They are already being given the boost as the fuel allowance is likely to be reduced in the future, so it's just a question of this initial boost being big enough and what will be the performance gain by the end of the season, maybe it will seem just right.
Then the wheel has already begun turning. Just needs a bit of time.
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Richard
Richard
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Re: 2014 too slow? (or not, as the case may be)

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I think Paul means they are having it easy this year because the fuel regs are getting tighter next year. So they've not been given a boost, merely a phased introduction.

As for comparisons with the V8 homologation, those tweaks can't be compared to repackaging the entire turbo and the knock on for on the rest of the PU. Fortunately the regs do allow a redesign but it might be compromised by the points system.

At least Honda will be able to start with the split turbo as their starting point.

bhall
bhall
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Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

Re: 2014 too slow? (or not, as the case may be)

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FoxHound wrote:[...]

I think the problem here is if a team dominates, and you don't dig, you complain. Or you blame the rules.
But in the context of the last 5/6 years, it's as you were I'm afraid.

[...]
Both Ferrari and Mercedes suffered over the last few years because the Renault V8's fuel efficiency and minimal cooling requirements conferred a packaging advantage that Adrian Newey exploited mercilessly. That homologation locked in such an advantage for Renault's teams then was as wrong as the Mercedes teams' locked in advantage is now. That's just how I see it.

I don't think reliability updates within the homologation rules are the answer, because I don't necessarily think they're as potent as they've been made out to be. If they were, Renault wouldn't have required special dispensation in order to equalize its engine a few years ago. They could have just made a "reliability" update and called it a day.

Obviously, Mercedes is not to blame for Ferrari and Renault's current troubles. Well, unless one considers doing a much better job worthy of blame. The rules just don't make much sense, and they haven't for a while now.

If it were up to me, I'd make a one-time offer to the engine manufacturers to forgo eligibility for the current Championship in exchange for a free and massive in-season update to their PU. Naturally, Mercedes would decline in order to claim the titles they've effectively already won. But, perhaps Ferrari and Renault would take advantage and at least make the rest of the season more interesting on-track.

I'm not really serious about that, by the way.

Yes, I am.

Richard
Richard
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Re: 2014 too slow? (or not, as the case may be)

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bhall wrote:If it were up to me, I'd make a one-time offer to the engine manufacturers to forgo eligibility for the current Championship in exchange for a free and massive in-season update to their PU. Naturally, Mercedes would decline in order to claim the titles they've effectively already won. But, perhaps Ferrari and Renault would take advantage and at least make the rest of the season more interesting on-track.

I'm not really serious about that, by the way.

Yes, I am.
The homolgation system seems to permit that already ... although I suspect the adapted engines would have some comprises to save homolgation points?

bhall
bhall
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Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

Re: 2014 Engine Homolgation

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Yeah, manufacturers can legally update their PUs during the offseason. But, that doesn't do much for us now, yanno?

That's the motivation for my silly proposal.

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Cam
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Joined: 02 Mar 2012, 08:38

Re: 2014 too slow? (or not, as the case may be)

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FrukostScones wrote:FoxHound just said that your whining about the engines beeing frozen and that no gains can me made are incorrect. But apperently that doesn't interest you because you use your "free thinking" aka denial?
Wow. Ok. Did you read what @richard_leeds said? If you did, I thought you might have edited your comment. Maybe go read it again champ. Also maybe consider how @richard_leeds and others respond - you might learn a thing or two - this in a place of learning, I feel, should be pointed out.
bhall wrote:Yeah, manufacturers can legally update their PUs during the offseason. But, that doesn't do much for us now, yanno? That's the motivation for my silly proposal.
Agree and it's not that silly. While it's not ideal, without wholesale changes to how they approach this, @bhall's idea could have legs. While I hate it, I'ld probably accept it over what we have now.
FoxHound wrote:It's not different to the V8 frozen engine engine Formula.
To a point. The back end of the V8's chapter had a huge amount of emphasis not on engine design, but on aero and engine maps - something everyone could develop. Sure the rules were tight, but innovations were found and implemented. These innovations were open to anyone to copy, sometimes with relative ease and low cost. Look how many RB clones there were and most performed really well. A team could throw away almost the entire body and start again - you can't do that with the current engine regs. Which leaves us where we are. This is the crux.

Taken to it's final destination - we could find a situation (hypothetical) where all cars have to run Merc engines, because every other engine design is locked too far to make any real difference in performance. Is that want we all want?

I'ld actually prefer to see a stock engine used (branded by the manufacturers) and the teams then free to develop and bolt on anything they want to it. In conjunction with a 100L or less fuel limit for the race, teams would have to come up with all kinds of methods to run fast and lean. We might even see some actual innovations for once - like the good 'ole days. Maybe even have a amnesty period where after a few races, the tech has to be shared, this allows some catching to parity while then pushing the teams to find the next new development to stay ahead.

This F1 would be far more interesting.
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FoxHound
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Joined: 23 Aug 2012, 16:50

Re: 2014 Engine Homolgation

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bhall wrote:Yeah, manufacturers can legally update their PUs during the offseason. But, that doesn't do much for us now, yanno?

That's the motivation for my silly proposal.
I accept that. And your proposal is a decent one.
But how would you implement it now, with decimating a teams well earned advantage?
That W05 was a looong time coming, to the detriment of other "W's" quite possibly.
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bhall
bhall
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Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

Re: 2014 Engine Homolgation

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I genuinely wasn't serious about my outlandish proposal. But, that otherwise (occasionally? :wink: ) reasonable people have considered it for even one nanosecond says a lot to me about just how illogical this whole thing has become.

"Let's arbitrarily upend the whole Championship!"

"All right. How?"

:lol:

I guess that's what happens after 40-year-old technology is accepted and promoted as "innovative" and homologation rules touted to cut costs merely hide the usual expenditures behind closed doors, not to mention the implementation of an absurd double-points race down the line. F1 doesn't seem to discriminate when it comes to bad ideas.