Mclaren Mercedes 2014

[Del Boy]

This might be off topic as it's about McLaren (going by the last few)

I see that Vandoorne completed 136 laps today and earned his super licence. Hopefully he's replacing Jenson Mutton soon!

His lap times wasn't impressive.

Agreed and I only looked at the headlines therefore not sure of tyre used or temperatures etc but Vandoorne 1:28.441 today Button 1:28.333 yesterday so he's a little over a tenth away. That's not bad and as it was a Pirelli day!!!

[mikeerfol]

Vandoorne was on hards all the time.

[McMrocks]

Vandoorne replacing Button would be a wrong call. In times like this the team needs at least one experienced driver. Of course Vandoorne has some potential but it needs to be unlocked first (just like the car's potential). All this claims that JB is bad in terms of developing a car is rubbish. A car isn't developed by the driver. If the driver says he wants to have a car that understeer the team will try to make the car suiting his preferences with the setup (fw angle or suspension setup). And not by changing the characteristics of the whole car

The driver has limited influence on car developement in modern F1 where everything is ruled by number and figures.

And furhtermore insisting that the McLaren's struggles are caused by just one person is more kind of fan-boyism. If one person was to blame for everything they would have sacked him already.

I really hope they get the issues sorted out

[akshat21]

Vandoorne replacing Button would be a wrong call. In times like this the team needs at least one experienced driver. Of course Vandoorne has some potential but it needs to be unlocked first (just like the car's potential). All this claims that JB is bad in terms of developing a car is rubbish. A car isn't developed by the driver. If the driver says he wants to have a car that understeer the team will try to make the car suiting his preferences with the setup (fw angle or suspension setup). And not by changing the characteristics of the whole car

The driver has limited influence on car developement in modern F1 where everything is ruled by number and figures.

And furhtermore insisting that the McLaren's struggles are caused by just one person is more kind of fan-boyism. If one person was to blame for everything they would have sacked him already.

I really hope they get the issues sorted out

Whilst I agree that the driver may not have the input that people think he has in developing a car, it is also true that the car can be limited by the driver feedback and preference.

To put it another way, right now we know that the car works well in a specific window, outside of which it isn't competitive at all. The same way, I think drivers can sometimes have a very operating window in which they can get the maximum out of the car. The reason that an Alonso or Hamilton or Schumacher can get a good lap out of a bad car is their ability tailor their driving around the car.

Button on the the other hand has a small window (when the stars are aligned and the car is perfectly setup for him) in which can outperform anybody on the grid. That is what I think is hurting Mclaren in the points situation.

His preference and driving style may not be optimal to get the maximum out of the car. If for example he prefers understeer, and the rules that designers are working with create a car that can be oversteery due to the torque available to them, then in essence the car and driver will always be fighting each other rather than the posting competitive lap times.

[hakan439]

...To put it another way, right now we know that the car works well in a specific window, outside of which it isn't competitive at all. The same way, I think drivers can sometimes have a very operating window in which they can get the maximum out of the car. The reason that an Alonso or Hamilton or Schumacher can get a good lap out of a bad car is their ability tailor their driving around the car.

Button on the the other hand has a small window (when the stars are aligned and the car is perfectly setup for him) in which can outperform anybody on the grid. That is what I think is hurting Mclaren in the points situation. ...

operating window of the car is not a driver attribute, it is an ability of the car. In the example you gave, it was due to good setups, which is a joined effort from driver and race engineers. In previous years we see button could not deliver much while Hamilton was flying (compared to him). At that point, you could argue that Hamilton' s ability to set-up is better than Button's. But if the car has a problem with its operating window (no matter what you do, if the car can not heat tyres, driver cannot do anything) neither drivers can make it work properly.

We saw Vettel having problems with the car' s certain aspects. F1 Drivers have amazing sensitivity on car control, car behaviour and setup changes. We can not sense these differences

[mclaren111]

I agree, we need a driver with the ability to direct a team. Ferrari did it for Shumi - and we all know what happened.

I also think we should follow Merc and RB's FW design where the inside of the flaps turns downwards. Everything starts with the FW and ours have not worked since 2012.

[colonelbadger]

I agree, we need a driver with the ability to direct a team. Ferrari did it for Shumi - and we all know what happened.

I also think we should follow Merc and RB's FW design where the inside of the flaps turns downwards. Everything starts with the FW and ours have not worked since 2012.

By that argument Alonso is no good at directing a team either !! Come on, you're just looking for a scape goat for what is another poorly performing Mclaren. I think things are slowly coming together, but I can't see Mclaren being on top again for another couple of years. It's going to take time for the new personnel and engine to take effect. I'm calling 2016 as their championship year!

[Del Boy]

How do McLaren know they're down on downforce? I assume they mean versus Mercedes.
They say they have a good car so once again I'll assume it keeps four good rubber contact patches in contact with Tarmac through a corner and when braking or accerating! With good ride height etc. they must be able to very accurately measure their own downforce but how do they know the teams downforce.

[MercedesAMGSpy]

I agree, we need a driver with the ability to direct a team. Ferrari did it for Shumi - and we all know what happened.

I also think we should follow Merc and RB's FW design where the inside of the flaps turns downwards. Everything starts with the FW and ours have not worked since 2012.

By that argument Alonso is no good at directing a team either !! Come on, you're just looking for a scape goat for what is another poorly performing Mclaren. I think things are slowly coming together, but I can't see Mclaren being on top again for another couple of years. It's going to take time for the new personnel and engine to take effect. I'm calling 2016 as their championship year!

Button can help the team with his experience, the only disadvantage is that he must be 100% happy with the car to perform and at the moment that's very unrealistic at McLaren. He has to deal with it and I don't think Button is the best driver in that situation. I have seen Alonso doing magical things with a bad car. Although I agree Vandoorne-Magnussen as a line-up won't help the team.

[Emerson.F]

Vandoorne replacing Button would be a wrong call. In times like this the team needs at least one experienced driver. Of course Vandoorne has some potential but it needs to be unlocked first (just like the car's potential). All this claims that JB is bad in terms of developing a car is rubbish. A car isn't developed by the driver. If the driver says he wants to have a car that understeer the team will try to make the car suiting his preferences with the setup (fw angle or suspension setup). And not by changing the characteristics of the whole car. The driver has limited influence on car developement in modern F1 where everything is ruled by number and figures. And furhtermore insisting that the McLaren's struggles are caused by just one person is more kind of fan-boyism. If one person was to blame for everything they would have sacked him already.

I really hope they get the issues sorted out

Riiight..

Seriously some of you only need to look back at Canada 2012 when JB was lapped by lewis who took victory. I'm not stating he's that bad every race but in that season he failed to score for a couple of races without DNF's or mechanical troubles. Lets look at 2009 starting of with a dog of a car and ended up winning 2 races in the end. 2013 was the year to prove how Jb could develop a car to his liking and his driving style.

"We all drive differently and have different styles," he said. "For me I need a car I can develop beneath me and feel comfortable in. If the car feels neutral and unbalanced it doesn't work for me. "I need to develop a car and engineer a car in a position that feels comfortable for me, and I don't think anyone can do a better job than I can in that position. "The problem for me is if I can't get the car there I do struggle more than some." "Of course, he's been a tough team-mate in terms of speed, but also a good team-mate to work with and really develop the car.

"It's not the first time I've done that. When I got to BAR and Jacques [Villeneuve] left it was exactly the same situation. "I was there to lead the team and it's something I really look forward to and it's something where the best comes out of me in that situation."I can really build that team around me and direct the team in a direction I like with the car." Button feels he is one of the best drivers when it comes to developing a car he feels comfortable with. "We all drive differently and have different styles," he said. "For me I need a car I can develop beneath me and feel comfortable in. "If the car feels neutral and unbalanced it doesn't work for me.
Jenson Button McLaren"I need to develop a car and engineer a car in a position that feels comfortable for me, and I don't think anyone can do a better job than I can in that position.

Source: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104776

When you're team-mates with Lewis you share the direction of the car, if you like. Whereas now, with Lewis leaving, I have a couple of months to really direct the team into what I would like with the car before Checo (Pérez) arrives.

Source: http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/2880 ... nt-for-me/

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neJLip6pq6k[/youtube]

[acosmichippo]

how do they know the teams downforce.

pretty sure they judge it based on times through high-speed, twisty sectors compared with other teams. if they're consistently losing time to other teams in those sectors, which are highly dependent on DF, then they know the other teams have more.

[Del Boy]

how do they know the teams downforce.

pretty sure they judge it based on times through high-speed, twisty sectors compared with other teams. if they're consistently losing time to other teams in those sectors, which are highly dependent on DF, then they know the other teams have more.

Thanks but that means they have to assume mechanical grip is as good or better or similar to theirs to know the DF? And if they're assuming they're guessing.

[Tim.Wright]

how do they know the teams downforce.

pretty sure they judge it based on times through high-speed, twisty sectors compared with other teams. if they're consistently losing time to other teams in those sectors, which are highly dependent on DF, then they know the other teams have more.

Thanks but that means they have to assume mechanical grip is as good or better or similar to theirs to know the DF? And if they're assuming they're guessing.

Well given that they all have the same tyres and same mass, everyone have more or less the same coefficient of friction available. If you then notice deltas between certain cars which are speed dependant, then you can be pretty sure that its an aerodynamic difference.

And yes, it is guessing, but its educated guessing. All engineering is like this.

[adrianjordan]

how do they know the teams downforce.

pretty sure they judge it based on times through high-speed, twisty sectors compared with other teams. if they're consistently losing time to other teams in those sectors, which are highly dependent on DF, then they know the other teams have more.

Thanks but that means they have to assume mechanical grip is as good or better or similar to theirs to know the DF? And if they're assuming they're guessing.

There'll be assumptions made, but don't kid yourself. All the top teams will have very, very intelligent people analysing the other teams' cars to try and work out where the lap time differences are coming from...

[MercedesAMGSpy]

Vandoorne replacing Button would be a wrong call. In times like this the team needs at least one experienced driver. Of course Vandoorne has some potential but it needs to be unlocked first (just like the car's potential). All this claims that JB is bad in terms of developing a car is rubbish. A car isn't developed by the driver. If the driver says he wants to have a car that understeer the team will try to make the car suiting his preferences with the setup (fw angle or suspension setup). And not by changing the characteristics of the whole car. The driver has limited influence on car developement in modern F1 where everything is ruled by number and figures. And furhtermore insisting that the McLaren's struggles are caused by just one person is more kind of fan-boyism. If one person was to blame for everything they would have sacked him already.

I really hope they get the issues sorted out

Riiight..

Seriously some of you only need to look back at Canada 2012 when JB was lapped by lewis who took victory. I'm not stating he's that bad every race but in that season he failed to score for a couple of races without DNF's or mechanical troubles. Lets look at 2009 starting of with a dog of a car and ended up winning 2 races in the end. 2013 was the year to prove how Jb could develop a car to his liking and his driving style.

"We all drive differently and have different styles," he said. "For me I need a car I can develop beneath me and feel comfortable in. If the car feels neutral and unbalanced it doesn't work for me. "I need to develop a car and engineer a car in a position that feels comfortable for me, and I don't think anyone can do a better job than I can in that position. "The problem for me is if I can't get the car there I do struggle more than some." "Of course, he's been a tough team-mate in terms of speed, but also a good team-mate to work with and really develop the car.

"It's not the first time I've done that. When I got to BAR and Jacques [Villeneuve] left it was exactly the same situation. "I was there to lead the team and it's something I really look forward to and it's something where the best comes out of me in that situation."I can really build that team around me and direct the team in a direction I like with the car." Button feels he is one of the best drivers when it comes to developing a car he feels comfortable with. "We all drive differently and have different styles," he said. "For me I need a car I can develop beneath me and feel comfortable in. "If the car feels neutral and unbalanced it doesn't work for me.
Jenson Button McLaren"I need to develop a car and engineer a car in a position that feels comfortable for me, and I don't think anyone can do a better job than I can in that position.

Source: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104776

When you're team-mates with Lewis you share the direction of the car, if you like. Whereas now, with Lewis leaving, I have a couple of months to really direct the team into what I would like with the car before Checo (Pérez) arrives.

Source: http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/2880 ... nt-for-me/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neJLip6pq6k

Spot on, Jenson is the team leader now, he can influence the direction of the car and now he is saying a rookie team mate can't help him. He needs to show us what he's made of. Finishing in the points or another good result.