virgin's four strikes against formula 1

[wesley123]

I think it will be just the opposite, if it survive first seasson/s it could easlily overcome F1

It also couldn't, hard to say. Formula 1 has it's market dominance, Formula E has to fight against a well developed market, and it definitely will have a hard time doing so.

I don´t think so, you will never see Shell or Petronas sponsoring FE, but we could see Panasonic, A123, Sanyo... also Tesla or any other electric car manufacturer

Obviously. But that doesn't mean FE has to fight against an incredibly well developed market.

Sponsors look for media impact, if a new electric competition suceed and people watch it, it wil be so diferent to any other competition only this will make it attractive for sponsors

And do you want to be the brand to take the risk to be the first? Many brands do not want to take this risk.

Which is weird since they are around for quite some time now. Longer than people realize. Formula E's hype seems to be around the wish to have clean energy, and currently electric is the way people go for some reason. Once that clean energy hype dies down one could assume that so does Formula E's

For some reason?

Today, when a big part of the electricity comes from coal plants, electricity is cleaner than petrol, only taking electricity from coal plants wich are the most polluting way to produce electricity. Not by a huge margin, but cleaner. [/quote]

Which is where the chemicals of the batteries come in. They tend to be very bad for the environment, so in turn, it gains nothing. It only shifts the problem around.

At least if you consider the pollution produced by petrol before burning it too. If you´re including the pollution produced by electricity at the power plants, you have to include the pollution produced by oil wells, refineries, oil tankers and oil trucks that supply petrol stations

I do. However, it was more of an example. My view on it is that many people do not realize that the electricity comes from those dirty plants. And to have a sufficient power supply for this increase in consumption we would need more power plants.

Today it´s a solid 25-30%, and some months it´s even been over 50%, so sometimes we have used more clean electricity than polluting one. That´s reality, not any hype.

It's a reality fueled by hype. Do you think anyone would be bothered to buy such a short range car if they weren't promoted and hyped up in any way?

These cars have been around actively since 1997, and no one cared even a little bit back then. But now, when everyone is promoting an "clean" image, everyone wants to buy one.

So yes, it is all hype. After 17 years they still are still terribly unpractical. Their range is still lacking, and you'll gonna enjoy forgetting to charge it when you get back at home. They are now only popular because buyers can get a tax cut on their vehicle, their general price has dropped and because they want to follow the "clean energy" trend.

Having the street races in those big cities seems a good idea to have quite some exposure. But then there is an other issue, it shoves it down of people's throats. Having those cars zooming through your streets can be quite forceful and annoying.

Or something really mindblowing, watching a race hearing the tires, how each driver brake and take the corners, hearing the aerodinamical sounds, and being able to comment the race with your friends.... I can´t find that forceful and annoying

Sure, however there are more people in this world. Think people who don't like autosport, mothers with children, and do I know what not. The last thing you need as a startup is a PR-nightmare

If people can´t cope with a noiseless competition it will be now on first seasson when they won´t watch it, but if first seasson is a success because people realice racing is a lot more than engine noise , I don´t see how it could dissapear on next seassons

A1GP was rather succesful, and where is that series now? A series cannot be ran on hopes and dreams

A1GP was another formula... like any other... GP2, GP3, F3, F3000, World Series

Too similar, too many competition for tv coverage, didn´t provide anything new. But FE is completely new, can´t be compared.

It's hardly new. But instead of ICE's they now have batteries. Nothing new about that, and it has been done before.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_Lightning

Which brings us back to the hype again...

Battery technology isn´t new, but it´s now when it has evolved enough to make possible useful electric cars. I´m sure without lithium batteries Tesla Motors wouldn´t exist, nor the Lola-Drayson B12/69EV, or the FE itself.

Arguable, if I take a look at specs from a 1997 EV, I don't notice incredible differences. The only actual change seems to be weight and reliability.

Not any hype, just technology reached the point where electric cars are possible, and this is just the beginning, wait for LiS batteries...

Electric cars have been possible for way longer. No one cared about it back then. But now, with the whole environment friendly thing(Because if we don't we will all burn to death) it is a hot item.

1- The torque curve is what ICE manufacturers are trying to match for more than a century... without success.

I can agree that that's an advantage.

2- Reliability can´t be compared. Electric motors are virtually indestructible, they´re too simple and there´s no wearing at all apart from two bearings. No maintenance at all either, no oil changes, no turbo problems, gaskets failing, injector problems, fuel or oil pumps... Think about all the problems you´ve had with all your cars, and probably 60-70% of them where engine related. All of them will dissapear

In exchange, we get batteries which by design don't have a very long lifespan(Take a look at your smartphone, you are lucky if the battery lasts 2 years, and in that time you'll notice some severe deterioration of battery life). With larger batteries this is somewhat less, but can still be an issue. Plus, batteries aren't very cheap.

Also, what happens with the old ones when they are switched out for new ones.

3- Lifespan will depend only on batteries because of the lack of wearing at the motor, they don´t get old or decrease the perfomance, the perform the same always, maintenance free and failures free. And next generation batteries will be around 70% cheaper than current ones, so a battery replacement won´t be a big investment, specially if you consider with a new battery you have a brand new power unit as the battery is the only part decreasing the perfomance with the use. Put a new battery and it will perform exatly the same than first day. So lifespan will be what the owner want it to be

I agree that this is an advantage

4- Ease of use and confort will be at a different league. Manufacturers do a big effort to avoid any noise and vibrations reaching the passengers, and they do a great job on some cases, but electric cars don´t provide any noise or vibration at all, so comfort in this aspect (noise and vibration isolation) will be at a different league.

I don't find it that great at all. Vibration wise it is an advantage. Sound is more of an issue than an advantage, for example; You can hardly hear the car coming as a pedestrian. Also, I personally find the feedback of an ICE to be of an importance.

5- Emissions are at a different league too as explained above if you make a fair comparison

On itself, yes, but disposal of batteries, plus creation isn't very environment friendly.

6- Today they weight the same or even a bit more than ICE cars, but with next batteries they will be much lighter and with much better weight distribution as they can be placed lower and more centered than the block of an ICE, what will improve handling, breaking and overall perfomance

I agree, this is an advantage. Lower CoG would be an advantage. Weight, it's not necessarily different. If you see that the engine from the Nissan ZEOD RC weighs only 46kg, then the same is possible with an ICE.

And I´m probably forgeting something... not a hype at all IMHO, but real advantages

In contrast, so do other forms.

F1 does not need to innovate. F1's issue is is that it has come to the point that everyone who is interested in watching is watching. There aren't many more potential viewers anymore(well, a few, but not a huge amount), so it has come to the point where growth is getting harder, and where the growth is mainly coming from income.

Singapore, Russia, India, Abu Dhabi... those look like some millions of new potential viewers.

Yet, no one is watching from there. Is it even a market then?

But even with Bernie doing big efforts to... well, actually to stop the fall of the audience numbers, he can´t. So even with F1 going to new countries what should increase the audience, it´s decreasing

Because the market has very little growth in itself. And why are people not watching anymore? Do they prefer to watch soccer, or do they prefer to spend time with their families?

F1 has reached the point where it has reached maximum growth, and logical step then is to cash in on this market. Making F1 subscription based(Sky...) isn't really a move to make the market grow, but it is a move to generate money from the existing market, because those who want to watch will cough up the way too large fee.

F1 does need innovation, and that´s what Bernie think too, you just have to take a look at his ideas (sprinklers, double scoring at last gp, new countries with no F1 tradition at all, night races...). He´s not trying to leave the competition as it is, but trying to be innovative

Not really innovative at all, he is trying to appeal to the market that has no interest in watching F1. Couple that with an old guy trying to do so, and you get such idea's. Although, one has to admit they aren't much worse than having an 50hp boost to the one who gets the most tweets.

[Edax]

"So will Formula E be the disruptor that replaces Formula 1? The F1 fraternity certainly does not see Formula E as a serious threat, but then like all disruptors that could be the secret of their success."

I believe Formula E will probably have some initial mass fan-fare, but putter out in a few years in viewership/attendants because it is too "gimmicky" and just like the absence of noise in Formula 1 currently people will be turned off.

I think you have to look at the other big racing series for reference. Imagine that this guy applied the four strikes principle on Incycar, or nascar, or V8's. I mean I was watching the Daytona prototypes last year and nearly fell off my chair laughing, when one of the cars had to stop because of a bent a pushrod. They might as well race with leafsprings and a fixed rear axle. Running in circles with a 4 speed manual transmission, how is that not ready for a disruption.

It is very hard to maintain a racing series. People tune in to a racing series because they like certain aspects, the technology, the appearance or even the noise. Now you can strive to conserve those aspects but that inevertably means that at some point the racing becomes outdated. Or you can allow (or induce) change.

Changing a racing series means that you will aleniate some of the hardcore public. I remember the outrage when the first quatro was introduced in the WRC. There were a lot of people very angry. For them the Lancia Stratos was what a real rallycar should look like (and to be honest I was one of them, because I felt the quatro's were too easy to drive).

Similar was the introduction of the diesel at Le Mans. If you grew up with the picture of a gulf blue porsche 917 on your wall, the Audi is by comparison a clinical and quiet machine. But I have no doubts that for next generations of racing fans it will be the benchmark.

The same is happening with F1 at the moment and I have no doubt it will recover. IMO they could have done it smarter. They should have made it a dual racing series, wherein the hybrid V6 could compete against last years V8. That would mean giving the V6 equal performance. If the new engines would be winning on track then the public acceptance would go a lot faster,

but it will come eventually regardsless.

For the E series, I think it is extremely interesting. But I think at this moment the technology is not mature enough, and I am afraid that they have launched it a few years too soon..

[flyboy2160]

Having the EV debate yet again is off topic. Please stick to disrupting F1.

p.s. I just asked politely. However, some of you wouldn't listen and just had to continue the EV debate, so I've deleted those continuation EV argument posts and all the other EV debate posts. I left those that have some EV debate points, but have some relevance to the topic. Those who didn't listen got a short timeout.

[Andres125sx]

IMHO the EV debate is basic to understan if F1 may be disrupted by FE or not, but I´m not allowed to talk about this so I´ll leave this thread at this point, this is all I´ll add (what I was trying to post when I was banned)


IMO F1 will be strongly disrupted with new EVs that may change people´s concept about the future of the motor industry, and LiS batteries IMHO will be the inflexion point where ICEs will definitely considered out of date. So I think right now F1 should not worry, but with next generation batteries it will be strongly disrupted and they should worry about this because next batteries will be here sooner than most people think, so F1 may be disrupted sooner than most people think

[CHT]

I would like to see Formula E replacing GP2 race during the race weekend. I think both FE and F1 can coexist. Without one, you wont be able to know how great is the other.