2014 too slow? (or not, as the case may be)

[strad]

This is so based in psychology. You think what you have now is the best because you own it,,you're invested in it.
Ever watch Ink Master? Silly TV show about a competition for the best tattoo artist. They have a group come in and get tattoos from these guys then the guys tattooed select the worst tattoo. Guess what..Each person invariably feels their tattoo is good and some elses is the worst.
They ALWAYS like their tattoo best.
IF you would stand back and judge it honestly ...oh that's right...You Can't.

[bhall]

[...]

IF you would stand back and judge it honestly ...oh that's right...You Can't.

How far back do I need to stand so that this --- looks ten seconds faster, like it used to be?

[thedutchguy]

I posted this in the Monaco thread, but it seems to fit here as well: Direct comparison between the 2011 pole lap and the best lap from yesterday set in FP1. I will make a new version this video saturday with the actual pole lap, which will likely be a bit faster. The difference with 2011 is huge though, almost looks like the 2014 car is driving an outlap.

[Andres125sx]

I posted this in the Monaco threadl, but it seems to fit here as well: Direct comparison between the 2011 pole lap and the best lap from yesterday set in FP1. I will make a new version this video saturday with the actual pole lap, which will likely be a bit faster. The difference with 2011 is huge though, almost looks like the 2014 car is driving an outlap.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_8PA4llfUo

I wonder why people insist doing such a biased comparison...

So you think comparing a pole lap, with a lap from FP is fair...

2014 cars are slower, you don´t need such a biased comparison to prove it


edit: I was thinking about FP2 and didn´t realice it´s FP1 lap, but it´s the same as the laptimes prove (fp2 2 tenths slower than FP1), the comparison is just useless. Apples to orages

[bonjon1979]

I posted this in the Monaco threadl, but it seems to fit here as well: Direct comparison between the 2011 pole lap and the best lap from yesterday set in FP1. I will make a new version this video saturday with the actual pole lap, which will likely be a bit faster. The difference with 2011 is huge though, almost looks like the 2014 car is driving an outlap.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_8PA4llfUo

I think the pole lap was a 1.13 or something that year, which is just ridiculously fast.

Here's Alonso's lap from 2007

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGJ006Zayoo

He did a 1.15.7. which I suspect they might get close to this year. Maybe a low 1.16 once the track is rubbered in and the cars are up to speed. I didn't see anyone complaining back then about it being too slow.

The big difference is that Vettel was able to get on to full throttle because of the EBD. It may've been quicker but personally, I think it's just a bit boring and requires far less skill. The drivers are having to be so careful with the throttle this year. You watch how hard it is for them to get all the power down. It's really difficult for them which makes it more exciting, even if it is a little bit slower. I think that maybe this year the tyres a step too hard which is exacerbating the problem. They're much harder and that's slowing the cars down as they're unable to get temperature into them and so lack grip. I suspect next year we'll see slightly softer tyres and the times will be much quicker.

[hollowBallistix]

The comparison is stupid, speed isn't everything....

it's like comparing a horse race to bull riding !!!

[thedutchguy]

I wonder why people insist doing such a biased comparison...

2014 cars are slower, you don´t need such a biased comparison to prove it

I'm not out there to prove anyting. I was watching FP1 yesterday and couldn't help but feel that it al looked REALLY slow and wanted to see if I was right or just imagining it... I'm sure they'll shave of about 2 secs tomorrow, but that will still not bring them anywhere near 2011 times.

[bhall]

The comparison is stupid, speed isn't everything....

[...]

It kinda hurts to read that.

"Speed isn't everything."
~ no F1 driver ever

[hollowBallistix]

The comparison is stupid, speed isn't everything....

[...]

It kinda hurts to read that.

"Speed isn't everything."
~ no F1 driver ever

Taken out of context, but i'd much rather watch the drivers have to struggle with a car & be a few seconds slower over a lap than have them drive round a circuit on rails.

[Phil]

I never said they were not performing any skills at all as you are trying to imply.

I think what you're trying to get at is how engaged the drivers are in the car. Sure they are engaged in the car, but it's an altogether different sort of engagement they partake in...some of which is partially dictated by the pitwall.

My point simply was, that operating a full manual gearbox was a driver skill for decades in grand prix racing, and if F1 is supposed to be the supreme driver test, they should still be running them.

Riding a unicycle is also a skill test, does that mean F1 should involve the drivers having to get to their cars on unicycles?

Perhaps they should have to cook a meal once they're done - that too is a skill.

The point is, "xyz requires skill" is not a reason for xyz to be part of the sport. Sure, manual gearboxes require skill to operate - doesn't mean they have to be part of F1. Similarly, massively complex power units with huge numbers of settings require skill to operate, and that doesn't mean they have to be part of F1 either, but they are just now, and that's where some of the driver skill test comes from.

The idea that something is not a test of the driver's skill simply because it doesn't involve a manual gearbox is ridiculous.

IMO this is precisely the reason why todays field is seperated by hundreds of a second, while in the "golden era" of F1, drivers like Fangio, Senna, Lauda/Hunt and others could distinguish themselves by seconds. I firmly believe this is because the skillset in the older days to drive one of these cars at the very edge of the limit (and possibly over) had as much to do with skill, but also a bit of insanity in pushing yourself to and beyond the limit of what was actually doable. That made it much easier to say overdrive - or drive the car to such an extend that made others look at your lap times and think there was something inhuman in there. Senna's lap in Monaco was one of those laps I believe.

If you reduce the skillset of a car, like I think has been the trend in F1 (and simply every single car outthere, not just in racing), the skills that remain become more the focus. By definition, less skillsets (or more focused ones) result in closer times. IMO - the sport is becoming too perfect for its own good. I very much agree with GitanesBlondes in the sense that it required a wider skillset to drive some of the older F1 cars than it is now days. I think the lap times between F1 drivers show this quite nicely.

No doubt, there's still a huge skill involved in order to get that tenth out of a lap that might differenciate between Pole and 2nd to 5th place - it's just more focused. Compare that to the older days when drivers needed to do much more, so the error margin naturally was much higher. If I were to guess, I'd say the factor "driver" is much lower today (with more emphasis on a ability of the car/team) than it was in the older days. Luckily, when we have wet races or unpredictable track/race conditions, we see the lap time gaps growing - precisely because the driver element/factor increases.

[timbo]

I posted this in the Monaco threadl, but it seems to fit here as well: Direct comparison between the 2011 pole lap and the best lap from yesterday set in FP1. I will make a new version this video saturday with the actual pole lap, which will likely be a bit faster. The difference with 2011 is huge though, almost looks like the 2014 car is driving an outlap.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_8PA4llfUo

I think the pole lap was a 1.13 or something that year, which is just ridiculously fast.

Here's Alonso's lap from 2007

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGJ006Zayoo

He did a 1.15.7. which I suspect they might get close to this year. Maybe a low 1.16 once the track is rubbered in and the cars are up to speed. I didn't see anyone complaining back then about it being too slow.

There are small changes to the circuit since then. Particularily, the kerb on the chicane after Swimming pool is much higher, I think that may easily cost a 3-4 tenths.

[Just_a_fan]

It kinda hurts to read that.

"Speed isn't everything."
~ no F1 driver ever

Tell that to Fangio - he always aimed to win in the slowest time possible. Not for him the silliness of Vettel trying to get the lap record at every track etc.

[bhall]

That's understandable in an era when making it to the end of the race was an achievement in itself and winning occasionally required commandeering your teammate's car if yours failed.

Taken out of context, but i'd much rather watch the drivers have to struggle with a car & be a few seconds slower over a lap than have them drive round a circuit on rails.

Today's cars are as much as ten seconds slower. But, I'm glad you mentioned the struggle of today's drivers, because I struggle to understand how current, slower cars are more difficult to drive, especially when the most successful of today's driver's has lamented the timidity of current machinery.

I don't think the skillset required to drive a 750-bhp V6T with perpetual Monza-spec levels of downforce on the limit of standard tires to a fuel-limited delta is any more advanced than that required to drive a 950-bhp V10 with gobs of downforce on the limit of custom tires to a competition-enforced delta. Limits are limits, regardless of where you find them.

If anything, I think some fans have found they can more easily visualize driver inputs today simply because slower things are easier to follow with the naked eye.

I think it's a mistake to underestimate the challenges faced by drivers within previous formulae. One of the fastest drivers I've ever seen, Jarno Trulli, couldn't keep it up over a race distance, and one of the most celebrated drivers of all-time, Michael Schumacher, gained his notoriety expressly because of the clinical precision with which he was able to maintain a blistering pace.

What has always set F1 apart from the rest is its speed. That has advantage has dwindled to the point of occasionally being non-existent.

[strad]

as usual this has devolved in sheer comedy.

[Sevach]

Today's cars are as much as ten seconds slower. But, I'm glad you mentioned the struggle of today's drivers, because I struggle to understand how current, slower cars are more difficult to drive, especially when the most successful of today's driver's has lamented the timidity of current machinery.

i agree with that, cars today move around more on the exit of corners, but they seem to do it in a nicer more predictable way than say 2004 cars.

Faster cars spend less time sideways, but when they go a little off they bite instead of just waggling it's tail.

Like old F1 vs GP2, the GP2 moves around more, but taking the F1 to the limit was harder imo.
Reductio to absurdum, a go Kart, it's always sliding... but you are safe in the knowledege that it won't suddenly bite you.