2014 too slow? (or not, as the case may be)

[stephenwh]

edit - my maths were out - if I'm wrong, let me know.

The cars are actually faster on the straights, so I don't know why you are using the word slow.

Some words from a wise man:

Some perspective.

A season of GP2 costs roughly €1,800,000 ($2,468,880). Last year, Mercedes AMG Petronas spent at least £160,000,000 ($268.656,064).

GP2 driver Stéphane Richelmi of DAMS took P1 with a time of 1:29.293 in Barcelona. Hamilton took P1 with a time of 1:25.232.

If we know €1,800,000 ($2,468,880) "buys" a 1:29.293 laptime, Mercedes essentially spent £158,200,000 ($265,633,684) to gain a little over four seconds.



EDIT: currencies

This basically speaks volumes. If I've done my maths right, it looks like this:
• €1,800,000 for a 1:29.293 laptime in GP2 = €23,255 (and change) per second
• £160,000,000 for a 1:25.232. laptime in F1 = €21,333,333 (and change) per second

F1 spent a staggering 917 x times the spend to make a 4.5% gain over the second tier car on a single lap. Think about that.

Now, while it's easy to say "917 x times money = 917 x performance", but we know that's not really true in reality, however, 4.5%?! Is that the best they could do? 4 effing point 5 percent? No. Of course it's not. So while you may say "the cars are actually faster on the straights", the overall ability of the car to lap a track is nowhere near what it could (neigh should) be for that kind of spend.

F1 2014 too slow? For that kind of cash, what do you think?

So once again, the lap times in F1 are going to keep coming down as the teams get better at this formula and the cars get developed. The gp2 cars will stay where they are. I know you don't like it, but for quite sometime now, the FIA has been making sure each new formula change slows the cars down - just like in 1998 when we last had a major change like this. They do it to keep the sport safe...that is just the way it is. *shrug* All that is required really is that they stay faster than gp2, which they are. No problem. You do realize how easy it would be to speed the cars up, right? Simply increase the fuel flow limit...but they are not going to do that. It is up to the teams and development to find more speed. That is the essence of Formula One in 2014. Find more speed within the limits of the strict rules. The rules are so strict because the fans were demanding closer racing, it is not working at the moment because Mercedes has a big lead and the other teams need to catch up, but again, nature of the beast. It really isn't the end of the world, it's been this way for a couple of decades now.

[bhall]

I'd urge you to research your claims before you post them, because a whole lot of those assertions have no basis in reality and have already been debunked in this thread with demonstrable, factual evidence. (You're not the first person here to mistake a subjective view for an objective fact.)

[Andres125sx]

Well, if I ever become ill for any reason, I hope the people who love me - and there are a couple, I think? - fight to help me out instead of lazily standing by under the auspice that I've merely "moved on" to something else.

"He's moved on to the cancer phase of his life now, and who are we to intervene?"

And that´s what they did....

F1 with 7 years old engines??? That was a nosense, no current regulations

If F1 has ever been absurd, it was when they were using out of date frozen engines at the suppossed pinnacle of motorsports. What a joke... even my car used newer technology...



Anycase IMHO you´re failing at your diagnosis, what is killing F1 is not the engine they´re using or the laptimes, but the complete lack of competitiveness. Who cares about anything else if F1 races become completely predictable and boring?

Monaco was the perfect example, Hamilton stuck behind Rosberg and I never thought he would have a chance to win. Ricciardo was faster than Lewis and I never thought he would have a chance.... Anyone enjoy this sort of competition?

If they would be doing 5 seconds faster laptimes, you´d be happy with this?. Real question here, please reply

[Sevach]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/27643627

Another guy who thinks these rules are stupid.

[bhall]

[...]

If they would be doing 5 seconds faster laptimes, you´d be happy with this?. Real question here, please reply

I've never said frozen-spec V8s make any sense, only that V6T hybrids aren't the answer. They utilize off the shelf technologies so automakers can claim "road relevance" as if such a thing is actually meaningful.

And I agree with you that the lack of parity is an issue, but severely restricted testing and a seasonal PU freeze don't exactly help teams bridge the gap to the front, yanno? It could be even worse in coming years if certain teams get their wish for mid-season chassis freezes.

As I've said elsewhere, this season effectively ended when Mercedes homologated its PU back in February. The grands prix are but a formality.

Maybe that wouldn't be so bad if the cars were a bit more entertaining in and of themselves. I'll never grow tired of watching or hearing stuff like this (action starts at around 14:00, and the initial safety car period ends at around 25:00).

[Sevach]

Well, if I ever become ill for any reason, I hope the people who love me - and there are a couple, I think? - fight to help me out instead of lazily standing by under the auspice that I've merely "moved on" to something else.

"He's moved on to the cancer phase of his life now, and who are we to intervene?"

And that´s what they did....

F1 with 7 years old engines??? That was a nosense, no current regulations

If F1 has ever been absurd, it was when they were using out of date frozen engines at the suppossed pinnacle of motorsports. What a joke... even my car used newer technology...

What's to blame for that is restrictive engine rules, and these engines are equally frozen.

And the only thing "new" is utilizing heat energy, turbochargers are nothing new and kinetic energy was already used for a few years, they just increased the allowance.
So much for new tech... i rather have high revving engines, much more impressive if you ask me.

[Just_a_fan]

100%. Speaking for myself (and it seems I'm not alone), I'm not attacking F1 because I hate it - au contraire. I'm expressing my dislikes, outlined with a rationale, in the hope we can fix what I see as faults in the sport. How can anyone be critized for that.

Sitting back and doing nothing..... blindly accepting fate......well.....

What did the FIA say when you put your concerns to them? Did they give any reasons for why F1 is how it is today?

You have contacted the FIA directly haven't you? You're not really hoping to change F1 just by moaning on an Internet forum, are you?

[Just_a_fan]

Well, if I ever become ill for any reason, I hope the people who love me - and there are a couple, I think? - fight to help me out instead of lazily standing by under the auspice that I've merely "moved on" to something else.

"He's moved on to the cancer phase of his life now, and who are we to intervene?"

And that´s what they did....

F1 with 7 years old engines??? That was a nosense, no current regulations

If F1 has ever been absurd, it was when they were using out of date frozen engines at the suppossed pinnacle of motorsports. What a joke... even my car used newer technology...

What's to blame for that is restrictive engine rules, and these engines are equally frozen.

And the only thing "new" is utilizing heat energy, turbochargers are nothing new and kinetic energy was already used for a few years, they just increased the allowance.
So much for new tech... i rather have high revving engines, much more impressive if you ask me.

The rules were partly written to ensure that engine manufacturers stayed in the series. If no one wants to make engines then there is no race series. We could have had all the teams using Ferrari engines I suppose. Or some teams using Ferrari engines and everyone else using the donkey from Cosworth. That would have been so much fun...

[Trocola]

If they would be doing 5 seconds faster laptimes, you´d be happy with this?. Real question here, please reply

The faster a car goes, the easier is to the driver to make a mistake

Lapping slower than a GP2 car is not going to provoque any mistakes

[Cam]

100%. Speaking for myself (and it seems I'm not alone), I'm not attacking F1 because I hate it - au contraire. I'm expressing my dislikes, outlined with a rationale, in the hope we can fix what I see as faults in the sport. How can anyone be critized for that.

Sitting back and doing nothing..... blindly accepting fate......well.....

What did the FIA say when you put your concerns to them? Did they give any reasons for why F1 is how it is today?

You have contacted the FIA directly haven't you? You're not really hoping to change F1 just by moaning on an Internet forum, are you?

You don't need to knock on the door of the Prime Minister to achieve legislation change.

Here I was thinking a forum is a meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged. Guess I'm wrong on that too.

[stephenwh]

I'd urge you to research your claims before you post them, because a whole lot of those assertions have no basis in reality and have already been debunked in this thread with demonstrable, factual evidence. (You're not the first person here to mistake a subjective view for an objective fact.)

There is nothing in my post that is factually incorrect. There indeed was a huge formula change in 1998. Your posts my way are becoming tiring, please just stop addressing me; I am not going to interact with someone that is 100% negative all the time. Either that. or actually address what you think has no basis in reality in my post. This arrogant top down "you don't know what you are talking about" stuff you do has no value whatsoever, and brings nothing to the conversation.

[Andres125sx]

[...]

If they would be doing 5 seconds faster laptimes, you´d be happy with this?. Real question here, please reply

I've never said frozen-spec V8s make any sense, only that V6T hybrids aren't the answer. They utilize off the shelf technologies so automakers can claim "road relevance" as if such a thing is actually meaningful.

And I agree with you that the lack of parity is an issue, but severely restricted testing and a seasonal PU freeze don't exactly help teams bridge the gap to the front, yanno? It could be even worse in coming years if certain teams get their wish for mid-season chassis freezes.

As I've said elsewhere, this season effectively ended when Mercedes homologated its PU back in February. The grands prix are but a formality.

Maybe that wouldn't be so bad if the cars were a bit more entertaining in and of themselves. I'll never grow tired of watching or hearing stuff like this (action starts at around 14:00, and the initial safety car period ends at around 25:00).

I agree with most of this, but you cleverly avoided to reply my question

Let´s try this way.... Did you enjoy 2002 seasson?

Ferrari won 15/17 GPs, and they were using those awesome V10 engines, and the cars were much much quicker than any other junior series, and they were allowed for in-seasson development...

But the competition was also predictable and boring, so the problem is not the freeze, the sound, or the laptimes.

Anycase I agree they´re going deeper into the problem, now we have a boring competition like previously, team perfomances are further away each other, the sound is worse, the engines are also frozen, last race scores double points... That´s the reason I think F1 bosses should retire, they don´t have more useful ideas, time for a change.

[Sevach]

The rules were partly written to ensure that engine manufacturers stayed in the series. If no one wants to make engines then there is no race series. We could have had all the teams using Ferrari engines I suppose. Or some teams using Ferrari engines and everyone else using the donkey from Cosworth. That would have been so much fun...

Like the 70s, better than this ---.

And just stop with these "apocalypse" scenarios, we would get "Mechachromes" and "Ilmor" engines instead.

[stephenwh]

One of the things I find a bit amazing is the avid resistance to change, F1 has a long history of an evolving, changing formula. A change in the engines was long over due. I guess my question is; if you say a 1.6l v6 hybrid is not that answer, does that mean you are done with Formula One? And if so, why rail against what we have to the people that have accepted the fact that there has been huge investment in these new engines, and they are not going away? Shouldn't you just accept the change, or go do something else? Does anyone really think they are suddenly going to announce something new for next year? No, they aren't. So when does the complaining become pointless?

[stephenwh]

[...]

If they would be doing 5 seconds faster laptimes, you´d be happy with this?. Real question here, please reply

I've never said frozen-spec V8s make any sense, only that V6T hybrids aren't the answer. They utilize off the shelf technologies so automakers can claim "road relevance" as if such a thing is actually meaningful.

And I agree with you that the lack of parity is an issue, but severely restricted testing and a seasonal PU freeze don't exactly help teams bridge the gap to the front, yanno? It could be even worse in coming years if certain teams get their wish for mid-season chassis freezes.

As I've said elsewhere, this season effectively ended when Mercedes homologated its PU back in February. The grands prix are but a formality.

Maybe that wouldn't be so bad if the cars were a bit more entertaining in and of themselves. I'll never grow tired of watching or hearing stuff like this (action starts at around 14:00, and the initial safety car period ends at around 25:00).

I agree with most of this, but you cleverly avoided to reply my question

Let´s try this way.... Did you enjoy 2002 seasson?

Ferrari won 15/17 GPs, and they were using those awesome V10 engines, and the cars were much much quicker than any other junior series, and they were allowed for in-seasson development...

But the competition was also predictable and boring, so the problem is not the freeze, the sound, or the laptimes.

Anycase I agree they´re going deeper into the problem, now we have a boring competition like previously, team perfomances are further away each other, the sound is worse, the engines are also frozen, last race scores double points... That´s the reason I think F1 bosses should retire, they don´t have more useful ideas, time for a change.

This. I find it humorous that some people claim F1 doesn't care about the fans or they don't listen to them. We have the very vocal fans to thank for DRS, we have the very vocal fans complaining about processional racing to thank for the tight rules in place in terms of body work, for the reduction in downforce, for the lack of a tire war. As an aside, we also have Ferrari to thank for the V6, because they threatened to quit over the original 4 cylinder plan. So it's not true that F1 doesn't care about the fans, what is more true is that there is a subset of fans who want to go back to the past. I find it highly unlikely much is going to change about this current engine formula for quite some time, it will take years, there is just too much invested.

Personally I had no problem with the processional racing, it was the nature of the rules at that time, but everyone else was in an uproar, so here we are.