2014 Austrian Grand Prix - Red Bull Ring

[komninosm]

This is how an unbiased analysis is made.

=D>

So if Hamilton is driving long enough behind Rosberg the unbiased analysis will always state that Hamilton will finish first.
All you have doubts in Hamilton: How hard can it be? Why don't you get it?

You lack reading comprehension apparently.
I said if Rosberg made a mistake Hamilton would overtake for sure. I did not say Rosberg would make a mistake for sure.
I also used "maybe" earlier.
Don't put words in my mouth like "thomin" put in Rosbergs and twisted his words and facts.

[Phil]

Everytime Hamilton got closer, Rosberg answered by pulling away in order to keep Ham out of the DRS window.

I'm actually not that sure about this. This pulling away could be very well due to traffic. During those phases in the last stint when the gap went from 1.5 to 2.3, the director was showing us mainly other cars (and never the two Mercedes). Here and there we saw glimpses of them (out of focus) and in this phase, they were also passing quite a few backmarkers. This could have equally caused the gap to stagnate, increase or decrease. On the whole, Rosberg didn't seem all that quick on the whole IMO.

That was while he was leading ahead of Bottas and while in clean air, he wasn't able to pull away (even though Bottas wasn't inside the DRS). This might be down to managing, but overall, I think Lewis was more comfortable in the car this weekend and was clearly quicker than the Williams (point in case, when he wasn't held up anymore when they pitted, he immediately was able to up his pace).

[komninosm]

That first pit stop wouldn't have changed anything. Lewis wouldn't have gotten the undercut on the second stop, so if anything he could have fallen behind Bottas if Williams were to cover for Nico's second stop and thereby undercut Lewis. Granted, that's an unlikely scenario, but even so, the gap would have been comparable to what we ended up with.


Nico was just asked whether he was on the edge in that last lap and he replied that he wasn't at all. He was on the couple of laps before that where he fought to keep Lewis out of the DRS range, but he said that on that last lap, he knew that Lewis was in no position to overtake him, as there are only three corners to try and do so and Lewis wasn't close enough to give it a go.

You're imagining things if you think Williams could keep up with Mercedes once they go ahead (Rosberg was toying with Perez to keep his DRS and give DRS to Williams so Hamilton could not pass them.)
What would happen if Hamilton had a better first pitstop is he would come out ahead of Bottas and start pressuring Rosberg right from there. After Perez got out of the way Rosberg would have no DRS and Hamilton would wear him down.

What Nico actually said was that in the last lap his tires started becoming quite a bit less efficient, but he wasn't worried because there were only 3 turns and Hamilton could not pass him. He did not say he was not on the edge. In fact if Hamilton had pressured him a lot longer (if he had a better first pitstop as above) it's reasonable to assume Rosberg would have used up his tires a lot more and maybe even made more mistakes in the end and got passed. He already made a big mistake once in the race and got off track. If Hamilton was behind him in such a mistake he would overtake for sure.
This is how an unbiased analysis is made.

I explicitly called it an unlikely scenario, so I don't understand you focusing on that.

However, you're too quick in dismissing Perez. He set the pace for Rosberg and Bottas and Hamilton couldn't pass either of them, so what makes you think he could have passed Perez? Or Rosberg for that matter?

But even if Lewis could have put more pressure on Nico than Bottas did (big if) during their second stint, I don't see how that would have changed anything. At best there would have been an outside chance but given the performances over the year so far, I just don't see it. We have seen both drivers pressure one another at various stages and so far we haven't seen one successful overtaking maneuver.

I mean the third stint is the best indicator. Nico managed the gap and kept it above 1s until the very last lap. Why would the second stint have been any different?

So many problems with your logic.
Williams did not try an early pitstop because they rightly feared that the harder tire would be slow to warm up and Mercedes would stay out and pass them. The only thing Williams could do was to pit at the exact same lap, but there's 2 Mercedes cars to cover. The cleverer strategy would be to stay out and gamble that Mercedes hits traffic while you come out ahead of Perez, but that failed. But at least that way you secure your 3rd+4th place so it's the safe bet.
I already explained to you why Rosberg didn't try to pass Perez early, he wanted DRS for himself, and a DRS train to keep Hamilton from overtaking anyone. If there was no Perez and Rosberg went out of Bottas's DRS then Hamilton would have a chance to pass him.
There's no "big if" to whether Hamilton could put more pressure than Bottas, there's only a tiny one and evidence points that it would be true. Mercedes are faster. Rosberg was managing the gap at 2 seconds. No DRS and still some dirty air. When he made a mistake and Bottas came INSIDE DRS range, Rosberg "magically" got away again.
The third stint is not the best indicator, because Hamilton used up a lot of his car's potential behind Bottas which otherwise he would have put to good use pressuring Rosberg. Also at the second stint he would have come out directly in Rosberg's DRS zone and not 2 seconds behind and having to use up the car to catch up. He could instead use the DRS to post same laps as Rosberg while using less of his car. And attack near the end.
Also I seem to remember an early race this year where they overtook each other several times. Also I didn't say Hamilton would pass him for sure. I only said he would pass if Rosberg made a mistake.
You twist my words like you twisted Rosbergs. Stick to the facts next time.

[thomin]

You're imagining things if you think Williams could keep up with Mercedes once they go ahead (Rosberg was toying with Perez to keep his DRS and give DRS to Williams so Hamilton could not pass them.)
What would happen if Hamilton had a better first pitstop is he would come out ahead of Bottas and start pressuring Rosberg right from there. After Perez got out of the way Rosberg would have no DRS and Hamilton would wear him down.

What Nico actually said was that in the last lap his tires started becoming quite a bit less efficient, but he wasn't worried because there were only 3 turns and Hamilton could not pass him. He did not say he was not on the edge. In fact if Hamilton had pressured him a lot longer (if he had a better first pitstop as above) it's reasonable to assume Rosberg would have used up his tires a lot more and maybe even made more mistakes in the end and got passed. He already made a big mistake once in the race and got off track. If Hamilton was behind him in such a mistake he would overtake for sure.
This is how an unbiased analysis is made.

I explicitly called it an unlikely scenario, so I don't understand you focusing on that.

However, you're too quick in dismissing Perez. He set the pace for Rosberg and Bottas and Hamilton couldn't pass either of them, so what makes you think he could have passed Perez? Or Rosberg for that matter?

But even if Lewis could have put more pressure on Nico than Bottas did (big if) during their second stint, I don't see how that would have changed anything. At best there would have been an outside chance but given the performances over the year so far, I just don't see it. We have seen both drivers pressure one another at various stages and so far we haven't seen one successful overtaking maneuver.

I mean the third stint is the best indicator. Nico managed the gap and kept it above 1s until the very last lap. Why would the second stint have been any different?

So many problems with your logic.
Williams did not try an early pitstop because they rightly feared that the harder tire would be slow to warm up and Mercedes would stay out and pass them. The only thing Williams could do was to pit at the exact same lap, but there's 2 Mercedes cars to cover. The cleverer strategy would be to stay out and gamble that Mercedes hits traffic while you come out ahead of Perez, but that failed. But at least that way you secure your 3rd+4th place so it's the safe bet.
I already explained to you why Rosberg didn't try to pass Perez early, he wanted DRS for himself, and a DRS train to keep Hamilton from overtaking anyone. If there was no Perez and Rosberg went out of Bottas's DRS then Hamilton would have a chance to pass him.
There's no "big if" to whether Hamilton could put more pressure than Bottas, there's only a tiny one and evidence points that it would be true. Mercedes are faster. Rosberg was managing the gap at 2 seconds. No DRS and still some dirty air. When he made a mistake and Bottas came INSIDE DRS range, Rosberg "magically" got away again.
The third stint is not the best indicator, because Hamilton used up a lot of his car's potential behind Bottas which otherwise he would have put to good use pressuring Rosberg. Also at the second stint he would have come out directly in Rosberg's DRS zone and not 2 seconds behind and having to use up the car to catch up. He could instead use the DRS to post same laps as Rosberg while using less of his car. And attack near the end.
Also I seem to remember an early race this year where they overtook each other several times. Also I didn't say Hamilton would pass him for sure. I only said he would pass if Rosberg made a mistake.
You twist my words like you twisted Rosbergs. Stick to the facts next time.

Funny, you tell me to stick to the facts, yet your entire argument consists of second guessing what went on in people's heads coupled with some ad hoc rationalizations.

It's by no means a "fact" that Rosberg deliberately lingered behind Perez. In fact, that's a preposterous idea. If Nico could have passed him, he would have and he would have tried to put as much distance between himself and Lewis as he could.

Also, your story about a DRS train isn't consistent either as it was still limited by Perez who was without DRS. And I still haven't gotten why it would be easier to pass Perez, than the Williams/Mercedes directly behind Perez, being limited by Perez pace.

Lastly, the idea that Lewis "used up" his car's potential behind Bottas is so ludicrous that I start to think that you're simply trolling.

[Chene_Mostert]

3 Years in a Row Sebastian retired from a race in round 8
2012 - Valencia , 2013 - Silverstone , 2014 - Austria

It's a well know fact that Seb likes his "stats" and stats does not always have to be a positive. It's nice to see he is still writing the records even during a horrible season.

[Mandrake]

How much fuel is saved when you are running in the wake of another car between 1-2secs behind for basically an entire race?

In my own car I can hear how the wind noise is dramatically reduced driving closely behind another car and the calculated fuel usage in the display goes down by more than 1L/100km/h.

[Phil]

How much fuel is saved when you are running in the wake of another car between 1-2secs behind for basically an entire race?

In my own car I can hear how the wind noise is dramatically reduced driving closely behind another car and the calculated fuel usage in the display goes down by more than 1L/100km/h.

Unless you find yourself following a F1 car on your daily commute, I'm not really sure how similar the situation is. You know, F1, dirty air, difficulty passing cars etc... There is a wake where fuel consumption might be beneficial, but I wouldn't think it's in the gaps we're seeing. That gap where there might be lighter consumption is when the car behind effectively gets a "tow" and slipstreams. IMO, this wouldn't only be evident in the fuel usage, but most likely also top speed / speed traps.

[Mandrake]

Dirty Air is only dirty for the aerodynamics. If you are following a car you are getting closer because there is "less" air between the two cars. In a racing situation you gain on the car in front on the straights and lose in the corners because there the dirty air / wake is not beneficial. However, you burn though most of the fuel on the straights.

Cars do get a tow with only 1sec gap between each other, it's just no big enough to make a pass because the cars keep accelerating most of the straights anyways.

Now on the RedBull Ring what happens for the car being behind is the following: Closing up on the straights, going faster having less resistance from the air. That way you will burn less fuel (because max fuel flow is limited anyways even if you are revving higher). Secondly, you can lift and coast a little earlier as well because you do not get slowed down as much as a car in clean air. Come the corners however, the gap will increase because your car's aero does not work properly. Therefore, the game begins again on the straight. I'm pretty sure there is an effect on fuel usage, and it's not too small.

[Phil]

I think in simplistic terms, you have to imagine when you follow an ordinary car, shaped like a box (with no, or little downforce), that the airflow is quite different, to when you are following an f1 car, where the air-flow is very different as a result of all the elements on the car that are there to control that flow to create downforce. The effect you see in the corners is nothing more than that having an effect on especially the front-wing that is crucial to generate downforce on the fronts (cornering ability) as well as control the airflow to the back of the car...

[Chene_Mostert]

How much fuel is saved when you are running in the wake of another car between 1-2secs behind for basically an entire race?

In my own car I can hear how the wind noise is dramatically reduced driving closely behind another car and the calculated fuel usage in the display goes down by more than 1L/100km/h.

1.75% to 3% of what your consumption was prior to the tow, it depends on frontal area of the trailing vehicle and the turbulent down or up wash of the front vehicle. The main reason you see 1L/100Km reduction is mostly due to being more "off" throttle. also remember 1sec gap when doing 300Km/h is quite a distance (83M), to have a aero tow at that speed the gap has to be about 0.2 to 0.4sec.

[henra]

I think in simplistic terms, you have to imagine when you follow an ordinary car, shaped like a box (with no, or little downforce), that the airflow is quite different, to when you are following an f1 car, where the air-flow is very different as a result of all the elements on the car that are there to control that flow to create downforce.

Since you create downforce by accelerating air upward the distance where drag is reduced will be signifcantly longer than in a road car. Drag coefficient (That's what accelerates the air in the direction of the Motion of the car) of an F1 caris also almost twice as much as of a road car. All in all you will have much more tow effect in an F1 car than in a road car.
1s however will probably be borderline for any measurable effects. 2s is usually where you won't have anything left. That is the distance where no thermal Problems are to be expected when following another car. Thermal Problems when following other cars are a sure indicator of reduced air speed acting on the car. Reduced air speed equals reduced aerodynamic drag.

[CHT]

Dirty Air is only dirty for the aerodynamics. If you are following a car you are getting closer because there is "less" air between the two cars. In a racing situation you gain on the car in front on the straights and lose in the corners because there the dirty air / wake is not beneficial. However, you burn though most of the fuel on the straights.

Cars do get a tow with only 1sec gap between each other, it's just no big enough to make a pass because the cars keep accelerating most of the straights anyways.

Now on the RedBull Ring what happens for the car being behind is the following: Closing up on the straights, going faster having less resistance from the air. That way you will burn less fuel (because max fuel flow is limited anyways even if you are revving higher). Secondly, you can lift and coast a little earlier as well because you do not get slowed down as much as a car in clean air. Come the corners however, the gap will increase because your car's aero does not work properly. Therefore, the game begins again on the straight. I'm pretty sure there is an effect on fuel usage, and it's not too small.

Massa did mentioned that his pole lap was helped by following behind Alonso, who was around 1 to 2 sec ahead of of him, especially on the straights. So I guess it really depends on circuits and distant.

[Paul]

Massa should know, he once got Alonso penalized for blocking while never being closer than a few hundred meters.

[Juzh]

According to Helmut Marko new fuel from Total should make the Bulls more competitive this weekend. Tom Kristensen will be stewarding the race fresh from Le Mans.

They're saying this since winter testing, yet straight line speed difference between merc power and renault power, if anything, is even worse now than before. Canada being the perfect example of this.

Yep, much more competitive indeed. We can now say this with certainty. GJ WP 10/10 renault.
/sarcasm.

[nacho]

I would think drivers with less comsumption would start with less fuel, why would they start Hamilton with more than Rosberg if it's himself doing a better work in being able to save more with maintaining pace?

About fuel. Finnish TV / Ossi Oikarinen said there was a rumour that the differences in fuel flow sensors made a little difference (two tenths) in qualy for Massa and Bottas so that Massa could extract more maximum fuel flow / maximum power on straights. Apparently Williams has five sensors to pick the best ones from but the top teams have over thirty to choose from.