2014 Austrian Grand Prix - Red Bull Ring

[komninosm]

How much fuel is saved when you are running in the wake of another car between 1-2secs behind for basically an entire race?

In my own car I can hear how the wind noise is dramatically reduced driving closely behind another car and the calculated fuel usage in the display goes down by more than 1L/100km/h.

1.75% to 3% of what your consumption was prior to the tow, it depends on frontal area of the trailing vehicle and the turbulent down or up wash of the front vehicle. The main reason you see 1L/100Km reduction is mostly due to being more "off" throttle. also remember 1sec gap when doing 300Km/h is quite a distance (83M), to have a aero tow at that speed the gap has to be about 0.2 to 0.4sec.

You're forgetting that you can be closer in straights than turns cause you don't need downforce (to turn obviously). Also you underestimate the amount of F1 car air wash. Street cars do not have a huge rear wing usually. Finally an even more important part of fuel saving is DRS. If you don't use it to overtake then you can use it to save fuel (and other stuff).

[komninosm]

Funny, you tell me to stick to the facts, yet your entire argument consists of second guessing what went on in people's heads coupled with some ad hoc rationalizations.

It's by no means a "fact" that Rosberg deliberately lingered behind Perez. In fact, that's a preposterous idea. If Nico could have passed him, he would have and he would have tried to put as much distance between himself and Lewis as he could.

Also, your story about a DRS train isn't consistent either as it was still limited by Perez who was without DRS. And I still haven't gotten why it would be easier to pass Perez, than the Williams/Mercedes directly behind Perez, being limited by Perez pace.

Lastly, the idea that Lewis "used up" his car's potential behind Bottas is so ludicrous that I start to think that you're simply trolling.

The facts were what I said and what Rosberg said and you were twisting those. Obviously in my post I made some guesstimates that weren't facts, I did not say that. Keep twisting my words buddy, that's all you're good for.

[iotar__]

I would think drivers with less comsumption would start with less fuel, why would they start Hamilton with more than Rosberg if it's himself doing a better work in being able to save more with maintaining pace?

About fuel. Finnish TV / Ossi Oikarinen said there was a rumour that the differences in fuel flow sensors made a little difference (two tenths) in qualy for Massa and Bottas so that Massa could extract more maximum fuel flow / maximum power on straights. Apparently Williams has five sensors to pick the best ones from but the top teams have over thirty to choose from.

1. Is it certain that they always start with less than 100 kg? 2. Two tenths over one lap is a lot not a little. It used to be what 10 kg=0,4s? I'm not disagreeing or agreeing knowing nothing about it but isn't it too much and conveniently a difference between pole and 2nd in Austria?

This is the problem with efficiency, fuel saving etc., F1 is a rather complicated sport and now there's a whole new, area with no certain facts. They should show along fuel used in the race - fuel at the start like in refuelling times. In Austria I remember seeing Alonso using much more fuel but does it mean he had to save it later or was he that heavier at the start? OK found it:
lap 24: Ham - 31,6 Rosb - 32,4 Alon - 33,6
lap 38 Ham - 49,0 Rosb - 50,9 Alon - 52,7
lap 54 Ham - 69,3 Rosb - 71,8 Alon - 74,2
Thanks for nothing FOM, this info is completely useless. Oh look Alonso used the most fuel, Rosb 2 kg more than Ham. Does in mean he'll be slower, needs to save or started heavier, that's very interes.. zzzzzzz
Edit: one more:
lap 68/71 Ham - 87,9 Rosb - 90,9 Alon - 93,8 3kg difference between Ham - Rosb and they all start under 100 kg.
Fuel consumption championship:
Hamilton
Williams -2kg
Rosb -3kg
Ferrari, Force India -5 -6 kg (93-94)

So let's say when Hamilton starts and goes past Alonso in the first lap he's 6+ kg lighter on top of car+engine+top speed advantage.

[Chene_Mostert]

I would think drivers with less comsumption would start with less fuel, why would they start Hamilton with more than Rosberg if it's himself doing a better work in being able to save more with maintaining pace?

About fuel. Finnish TV / Ossi Oikarinen said there was a rumour that the differences in fuel flow sensors made a little difference (two tenths) in qualy for Massa and Bottas so that Massa could extract more maximum fuel flow / maximum power on straights. Apparently Williams has five sensors to pick the best ones from but the top teams have over thirty to choose from.

1. Is it certain that they always start with less than 100 kg? 2. Two tenths over one lap is a lot not a little. It used to be what 10 kg=0,4s? I'm not disagreeing or agreeing knowing nothing about it but isn't it too much and conveniently a difference between pole and 2nd in Austria?

This is the problem with efficiency, fuel saving etc., F1 is a rather complicated sport and now there's a whole new, area with no certain facts. They should show along fuel used in the race - fuel at the start like in refuelling times. In Austria I remember seeing Alonso using much more fuel but does it mean he had to save it later or was he that heavier at the start? OK found it:
lap 24: Ham - 31,6 Rosb - 32,4 Alon - 33,6
lap 38 Ham - 49,0 Rosb - 50,9 Alon - 52,7
lap 54 Ham - 69,3 Rosb - 71,8 Alon - 74,2
Thanks for nothing FOM, this info is completely useless. Oh look Alonso used the most fuel, Rosb 2 kg more than Ham. Does in mean he'll be slower, needs to save or started heavier, that's very interes.. zzzzzzz
Edit: one more:
lap 68/71 Ham - 87,9 Rosb - 90,9 Alon - 93,8 3kg difference between Ham - Rosb and they all start under 100 kg.
Fuel consumption championship:
Hamilton
Williams -2kg
Rosb -3kg
Ferrari, Force India -5 -6 kg (93-94)

Totally agree with you iotar__
This very interesting bit of "info" that FOM so kindly share with us does not seem to have any influence on the race outcome. I guess it does give a "hi tech" "green" feel to the current formula...

[iotar__]

So if it was 120 kg limit everyone would be doing the same with 4-6 kg/% below it, with faster cars (?) and without nice round number like 100? Same with 90 kg and so on 80 or 130? What are they gaining with this particular number - 100kg?

[Chene_Mostert]

So if it was 120 kg limit everyone would be doing the same with 4-6 kg/% below it, with faster cars (?) and without nice round number like 100? Same with 90 kg and so on 80 or 130? What are they gaining with this particular number - 100kg?

100Kg is just a round thumb suck figure given by the TWG same as 100Kg/h and 100Kg/h/5ms.
True progress in efficiency will be achieved when the FIA measures 170 Kg of fuel for each car for the weekend to use as they wish. Also "development" should be allowed to gain more power/efficiency. I do not know how "frozen" tech will benefit road cars?

[Racer X]

Im happy with the Effort Sergio Perez showed today he out raced Hulk by some margin and his result given the starting position on grid is definitely something to be proud off. I hope he gets a better start position next race and lets see what he can do closer up. I think maybe if he keeps racing like this he can MAYBE get one more podium this season...

Perez tried an alternate strategy - PPO, while the others were doing OPP. This alone (and ofcourse no mistakes from his part) gave him the jump on Hulk & K-Mag.

Yeah he stayed out for a long time on the first set and was faster then the Mercedez and Williams in that first stint despite having older tires and them taking on new ones. he didnt get passed until his tires were really loosing time on him. Im just happy with his performance usually drivers who start 15th can only aspire to maybe get into 10th if their lucky but he really drove well.

[PlatinumZealot]

I would think drivers with less comsumption would start with less fuel, why would they start Hamilton with more than Rosberg if it's himself doing a better work in being able to save more with maintaining pace?

About fuel. Finnish TV / Ossi Oikarinen said there was a rumour that the differences in fuel flow sensors made a little difference (two tenths) in qualy for Massa and Bottas so that Massa could extract more maximum fuel flow / maximum power on straights. Apparently Williams has five sensors to pick the best ones from but the top teams have over thirty to choose from.

1. Is it certain that they always start with less than 100 kg? 2. Two tenths over one lap is a lot not a little. It used to be what 10 kg=0,4s? I'm not disagreeing or agreeing knowing nothing about it but isn't it too much and conveniently a difference between pole and 2nd in Austria?

This is the problem with efficiency, fuel saving etc., F1 is a rather complicated sport and now there's a whole new, area with no certain facts. They should show along fuel used in the race - fuel at the start like in refuelling times. In Austria I remember seeing Alonso using much more fuel but does it mean he had to save it later or was he that heavier at the start? OK found it:
lap 24: Ham - 31,6 Rosb - 32,4 Alon - 33,6
lap 38 Ham - 49,0 Rosb - 50,9 Alon - 52,7
lap 54 Ham - 69,3 Rosb - 71,8 Alon - 74,2
Thanks for nothing FOM, this info is completely useless. Oh look Alonso used the most fuel, Rosb 2 kg more than Ham. Does in mean he'll be slower, needs to save or started heavier, that's very interes.. zzzzzzz
Edit: one more:
lap 68/71 Ham - 87,9 Rosb - 90,9 Alon - 93,8 3kg difference between Ham - Rosb and they all start under 100 kg.
Fuel consumption championship:
Hamilton
Williams -2kg
Rosb -3kg
Ferrari, Force India -5 -6 kg (93-94)

So let's say when Hamilton starts and goes past Alonso in the first lap he's 6+ kg lighter on top of car+engine+top speed advantage.

I like the information. It's to give fans like me something to talk about. I guess you can just ignore it if you wanted. Remember Nicole Scherzinger and Massa Senior taking up all that camera time in the pits?

[SamH123]

What happened to RB's pace during the race
Horner kept saying something like they were only '3 tenths' down on Mercedes, they were a clear 2nd fastest w/o Mercedes in FP2 long stints and qualifying and yet somehow a Williams came from 14th to 2nd to beat them.

Did running on the hards after the restart really cost them?

[Juzh]

Did running on the hards after the restart really cost them?

Yes.

You missed the thread? This is rb ring one.

[SamH123]

oops sorry

[this is silly seb]

Ricciardo has to be a shoe in a for the Kimi seat, a massive talent... proven race winner in un competitive car...has beaten Seb hands down...Italian name...and a marketable personality.

[Moose]

Ricciardo has to be a shoe in a for the Kimi seat, a massive talent... proven race winner in un competitive car...has beaten Seb hands down...Italian name...and a marketable personality.

No idea why we're talking about this in the 2014 thread... But Bottas.