Formula E

[autogyro]

I dont see the development of EVs as just batteries.
I can see a time soon where there will be no need to carry any energy on the vehicle at all.

[Andres125sx]

Maybe, but I see a problem with that

If EV technology improve this much.... or better, when EV technology improve this much, then EV will not need an ICE to generate electricity, batteries will be good enough for a full race, so an ICE will not be needed not even as a generator.

At that point F1 should switch to full electric, but with FE as a FIA series that would be redundant, so some of them would be forced to dissapear. It will depend on how strong FE is at that point

Anycase we´re talking about future, maybe 8-10-15 years. We´ll see...

Well I think you can safely assume that that will not be achieved with Li batteries or similar.

And I think you´re wrong...

Take a look just at the graph at first page

Or take a look to this specs, half weight or double energy density than best current Lipo batteries, and they´re present

Don't forget the hole world has been looking for the best way to store electricity for decades, whether for space electronics, photovoltaics or otherwise. The fact that automotive has joined the club, does not make that much difference in terms of R&D budgets or development pace. Battery technology will not suddenly leap forward because Elon Musk needs it.

True, it will not be suddenly, it´s being done for some years now. Lithium batteries changed the whole thing around 10 years back. Now LiS batteries will be another step forward. Then LiO batteries will be another improvement

Not suddenly, that´s true

There is also another way to look at it. The reason EV's have separate series is because they cannot compete with gasoline engines.

Sorry but...
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_cRqcbXAs4[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHwbCEnWMAw[/youtube]

Only problem is range, perfomance has never been a problem for electric motors

And best example is fastest ground vehicles on planet, High Speed Trains, all of them electrics as they don´t need a battery. And they´re not light vehicles exactly

Only problem is batteries, once they´re improved EV will replace ICE everywhere. Just do a search about Lithium Sulfur and Lithium Oxygen (Lithium air) batteries and inform yourself. They will not only improve energy density by a factor of 4-6, they will also be much more affordable. More than enough to change the whole automotive industry

[flynfrog]

I dont see the development of EVs as just batteries.
I can see a time soon where there will be no need to carry any energy on the vehicle at all.

[theblackangus]

I dont see the development of EVs as just batteries.
I can see a time soon where there will be no need to carry any energy on the vehicle at all.

Not sure how you would make a cross country trip... at least anytime soon (say by 2025) w/o carrying energy onboard.
Solar doesn't seem like it will hit the efficiency needed, at least enough for a decent speed.
Slot cars are not really viable .....

So what do you think will power these cars with no onboard energy stored?

Not disagreeing with the thought of "I dont see the development of EVs as just batteries", but I cant see an electric car capable of a decent journey w/o some onboard energy stored.

[mrluke]

No need to store energy for race cars on tracks. Drayson is doing interesting things with wireless charging now.

For a consumer car you are going to have to store energy for a long time yet. Look how long it has taken to roll out a crap standard of broadband across the uk. Feasible to have for example dual carriageways equipped with wireless charge then you'd only need a small store for the bit either side, that would cover most people but appreciate not all.

[SectorOne]

Safety car,

[theblackangus]

No need to store energy for race cars on tracks. Drayson is doing interesting things with wireless charging now.

For a consumer car you are going to have to store energy for a long time yet. Look how long it has taken to roll out a crap standard of broadband across the uk. Feasible to have for example dual carriageways equipped with wireless charge then you'd only need a small store for the bit either side, that would cover most people but appreciate not all.

My understand with these technologies is that power falls off at the either square or cube with distance. I'm not sure how you would power a race car for any length of time any time soon. Your phone yes, a RACE car no, at least not safely for the pilot.

Going to look up what Drayson is doing =)

Added:
From Draysons site:
The Drayson Wireless near-field systems can transfer up to 1.5 kW over a distance of up to 0.5 m

F1 car using 700HP = ~522KW.

Just a small differential.

Not to mention that this is likely a very low efficiency technology, as your source power needed is many times the destination power received, baring some major breakthroughs.

[autogyro]

How much energy is used to deliver and store liquid fuel?

Hmm now talking about efficiency....................

[Andres125sx]

Formula E course cars to be equipped with Qualcomm wireless charging


CANAL+ to televise Formula E live for three seasons


FE tv coverage


I think this is looking more solid each day

[theblackangus]

How much energy is used to deliver and store liquid fuel?

Hmm now talking about efficiency....................

There are various levels where efficiency needs to happen, your just moving the ball without supporting you assumptions.
So again how do we realistically think that race cars or road cars will need no stored energy in the next say 20 years?
At the moment it all looks like a very long time if ever that this will be possible safely with person in the vehicle.

Losses to nearfield energy transmission for a race car go far beyond that.
1. Losses due to distance (Nearfield unique)
2. Losses due to needed to cover a HUGE area with energy transmission (even assuming its embed into the track).(Nearfield unique)
3. Losses in conversion to motive power (Shared loss for both nearfield and onboard energy)
4. Losses in initial electrical energy generation (Which mostly comes from fossil fuels) (Shared loss for both)

So it seems nearfield has more potential to for inefficiencies to sneak in. Some of them pretty large for a racing/driving scenario.

[theblackangus]

Formula E course cars to be equipped with Qualcomm wireless charging


CANAL+ to televise Formula E live for three seasons


FE tv coverage


I think this is looking more solid each day

Sure it does..For small things or things that take time, but if you think live realtime transmission of hundreds of KW of power to drive a top level race car.... I don't see it soon in a safe manner.

Also charging Implies storage of power, which is the the crux of this question - No energy storage with on the fly remote power supply.

Dont get me wrong I would love to see it happen in a safe manner, but expecting leaps and bounds here is like expecting leaps and bounds in cheap energy. Seem like it should happen but will likely take a long time before it does.

[Andres125sx]

Formula E course cars to be equipped with Qualcomm wireless charging


CANAL+ to televise Formula E live for three seasons


FE tv coverage


I think this is looking more solid each day

Sure it does..For small things or things that take time, but if you think live realtime transmission of hundreds of KW of power to drive a top level race car....

No I don´t think so and never said anything in that line. Read my previous replies on this same page...

That was just a link about a FE new. I´d love that technology on my garage for night charging my EV without caring about wires. That´s all I expect from wireless charging on the next 20 years at least

[autogyro]

How much energy is used to deliver and store liquid fuel?

Hmm now talking about efficiency....................

There are various levels where efficiency needs to happen, your just moving the ball without supporting you assumptions.
So again how do we realistically think that race cars or road cars will need no stored energy in the next say 20 years?
At the moment it all looks like a very long time if ever that this will be possible safely with person in the vehicle.

Losses to nearfield energy transmission for a race car go far beyond that.
1. Losses due to distance (Nearfield unique)
2. Losses due to needed to cover a HUGE area with energy transmission (even assuming its embed into the track).(Nearfield unique)
3. Losses in conversion to motive power (Shared loss for both nearfield and onboard energy)
4. Losses in initial electrical energy generation (Which mostly comes from fossil fuels) (Shared loss for both)

So it seems nearfield has more potential to for inefficiencies to sneak in. Some of them pretty large for a racing/driving scenario.

Hmm terrible, you have yo carry so much extra weight in liquid fuel or battery weight.
Oh yes, for an inductive system what do you?
Oh yea turn the knob up.

[theblackangus]

Formula E course cars to be equipped with Qualcomm wireless charging


CANAL+ to televise Formula E live for three seasons


FE tv coverage


I think this is looking more solid each day

Sure it does..For small things or things that take time, but if you think live realtime transmission of hundreds of KW of power to drive a top level race car....

No I don´t think so and never said anything in that line. Read my previous replies on this same page...

That was just a link about a FE new. I´d love that technology on my garage for night charging my EV without caring about wires. That´s all I expect from wireless charging on the next 20 years at least

Apologies! I though you were replying to my post with the 1st link.

[theblackangus]

How much energy is used to deliver and store liquid fuel?

Hmm now talking about efficiency....................

There are various levels where efficiency needs to happen, your just moving the ball without supporting you assumptions.
So again how do we realistically think that race cars or road cars will need no stored energy in the next say 20 years?
At the moment it all looks like a very long time if ever that this will be possible safely with person in the vehicle.

Losses to nearfield energy transmission for a race car go far beyond that.
1. Losses due to distance (Nearfield unique)
2. Losses due to needed to cover a HUGE area with energy transmission (even assuming its embed into the track).(Nearfield unique)
3. Losses in conversion to motive power (Shared loss for both nearfield and onboard energy)
4. Losses in initial electrical energy generation (Which mostly comes from fossil fuels) (Shared loss for both)

So it seems nearfield has more potential to for inefficiencies to sneak in. Some of them pretty large for a racing/driving scenario.

Hmm terrible, you have yo carry so much extra weight in liquid fuel or battery weight.
Oh yes, for an inductive system what do you?
Oh yea turn the knob up.

And the battery or gas is the majority of the weight in the car? Sorry in most cases its not.

Oh wait I see.... so you really just want to Troll instead of backing up your statement I quoted below with any sort of actual fact or logic.

Have a good evening sir.

I can see a time soon where there will be no need to carry any energy on the vehicle at all.