Formula E

[J.A.W.]

But.. ..electric mills are pretty anodyne, max torque available just off stall is..

What ICE designers have been trying to match for more than a century.... without success


Electric cars are still in its infancy, FE is pretty conservative right now because of this and because of the battery limitations. But give it some time...

Actually, for sporting performance - the rising torque curve as rpm climb - which is part & parcel of high-output ICEs,
is a significant part of the racing experience, whereas the flat-to-falling electromotive response is fine for trolley buses,
but overall, uninspiring/unexciting as racing scheme..

But.. perhaps.. if a supply of NASA-surplus deep space probe plutonium fuel cells could be utilized..

[krisfx]

I'm really excited to see this kick off next weekend. I particularly like how practise, qualy and the race will all take place on the same day.

There are a couple of things that are confusing/concerning me though. From http://www.fiaformulae.com/en/guide/rules-and-regs.aspx :

ePrix

Races will begin by standing start and last for approximately one hour with drivers making one mandatory pit stop in order to change cars.

Are they seriously going to change cars in a pitstop? That seems like madness to me, I mean I can see the pitstops being the main deciding factor in who wins the race.

Championship

The FIA Formula E Championship will consist of both a drivers and a teams' championship. A driver's end of season total is made up of his/her best results less one.

Less one what, exactly?

I believe Less one means that they can drop their worst scoring round.

[mzso]

But.. ..electric mills are pretty anodyne, max torque available just off stall is - too easy, & having to lug around
massive battery/ballast is a drag, so racing-wise, technical/driving spectacle is somewhat lacking - compared to ICE.

So we should engineer toward inferior, more problematic technologies?
Electric would be interesting enough if done right.

[Andres125sx]

That's my point exactly. My races are that long. My fastest class record is 34.32 seconds. I don't log throttle position, so I don't know how much time is spent flat out, but I'd wager it's barely more than half that time. On that basis, 130C discharge rates are viable and 65C discharge is ample. Given that the longer events are up to 140 seconds in length and that a day's racing consists of 3-7 minutes behind the wheel, I'd rather bet on 15C discharge in real terms. I could go for something like these cells, which have a greater energy density but a lower peak power output. To match my current engine, I'd need ~80kg at 10C, which would let me run a whole event without recharging, but that pack would be capable of 450bhp peak, which is somewhat over-specced. My current engine is 69kg, but by going electric, I can ditch the engine, gearbox, exhaust, ECU, fuel tank, radiator, coolant, oil, etc. All that's needed to replace all of that is a motor, controller and battery pack.

In that case, you can go electric easily

If you don´t need such a high discharge rate, check Turnigy 30C batteries, they´re famous for holding voltage really good. I think Nanotech 90C are also good, but not that sure. If you want to talk with people with this kind of experience, check RcGroups, high perfomance sub-forum

[Andres125sx]

4mm bullet connector also seems a bit small doesn't it (I'm comparing to typical starter cable sizes for example)....???

Didn´t realice, but 4mm connectors are too small even for a half of that battery!

[Andres125sx]

What ICE designers have been trying to match for more than a century.... without success

Actually, for sporting performance - the rising torque curve as rpm climb - which is part & parcel of high-output ICEs,
is a significant part of the racing experience, whereas the flat-to-falling electromotive response is fine for trolley buses,
but overall, uninspiring/unexciting as racing scheme..

If my memory serves me well, MotoGP switched back to 1000cc from 800cc because they all prefered a flatter curve

[J.A.W.]

What ICE designers have been trying to match for more than a century.... without success

Actually, for sporting performance - the rising torque curve as rpm climb - which is part & parcel of high-output ICEs,
is a significant part of the racing experience, whereas the flat-to-falling electromotive response is fine for trolley buses,
but overall, uninspiring/unexciting as racing scheme..

If my memory serves me well, MotoGP switched back to 1000cc from 800cc because they all prefered a flatter curve

"They all" - certainly did not include the likes of V. Rossi & C. Stoner..
Rossi is on record as preferring the peaky power response that requires more skill to ride well, & Stoner retired early - because he was bored with the dumbing-down, remarking that he'd return if they had 500 2-strokes to race..

[J.A.W.]

But.. ..electric mills are pretty anodyne, max torque available just off stall is - too easy, & having to lug around
massive battery/ballast is a drag, so racing-wise, technical/driving spectacle is somewhat lacking - compared to ICE.

So we should engineer toward inferior, more problematic technologies?
Electric would be interesting enough if done right.

Done right?
Well, I suppose if lots of arcs, sparks, ozone & risk of electrocution was involved, like a N. Tesla exhibition..

[theblackangus]

That's my point exactly. My races are that long. My fastest class record is 34.32 seconds. I don't log throttle position, so I don't know how much time is spent flat out, but I'd wager it's barely more than half that time. On that basis, 130C discharge rates are viable and 65C discharge is ample. Given that the longer events are up to 140 seconds in length and that a day's racing consists of 3-7 minutes behind the wheel, I'd rather bet on 15C discharge in real terms. I could go for something like these cells, which have a greater energy density but a lower peak power output. To match my current engine, I'd need ~80kg at 10C, which would let me run a whole event without recharging, but that pack would be capable of 450bhp peak, which is somewhat over-specced. My current engine is 69kg, but by going electric, I can ditch the engine, gearbox, exhaust, ECU, fuel tank, radiator, coolant, oil, etc. All that's needed to replace all of that is a motor, controller and battery pack.

In that case, you can go electric easily

If you don´t need such a high discharge rate, check Turnigy 30C batteries, they´re famous for holding voltage really good. I think Nanotech 90C are also good, but not that sure. If you want to talk with people with this kind of experience, check RcGroups, high perfomance sub-forum

Would Lipo's be safe for racing tho? They tend to burn fast and hot when compromised and not much puts them out.
I know the stuff that we use for RC is quite dangerous if mis-handled or damaged while in use. (or sometimes charging!)

At Pike Peak a year back, one of the electric cars hit the wall, there wasn't much left after the fire. Dunno what kind of batteries he had on-board but the marshal I was talking with said it was a pita because there were 7 different types of battery technologies being used and everyone had a different fire extinguishing requirements/materials. On top of that no one was allowed to touch a failed vehicle but the team that owned it, in order to make sure the marshals were safe because each car had to be disarmed differently.

[mzso]

Done right?
Well, I suppose if lots of arcs, sparks, ozone & risk of electrocution was involved, like a N. Tesla exhibition..

That's silly. What people only need exciting races, and the impression of power and glamour, exoticness because they're shallow.
As for "easy to drive" is irrelevant because it only affects the drivers. Plus it's not easy at all if you drive fast and you're battling someone with similar competence.

[J.A.W.]

"...only affects the drivers..." -" that's silly" : indeed..

Skilled drivers relish the challenge, whereas.. ..dumbed down, anodyne machinery..
.. requires artifice in manipulation of the racing..
.. with all the orchestrated melodrama of the current ..NASCAR ..spectacle..
..Ugh..

[machin]

so racing-wise, technical/driving spectacle is somewhat lacking - compared to ICE

When F1 switched to the V6 turbos this year, with their wider/flatter power curve, there were comments made by the drivers that the cars were easier to wheelspin on corner exit... so I don't think that the "fuller" power curve of an Electric motor-based propulsion system will be any less exciting to watch at all... possibly the contrary.

[J.A.W.]

Is it "fuller", or flatter?
If max torque is available from stall, & falls thereafter, per electromotive 'powerband', then isn't it moot..

[machin]

ignore the torque (there's plenty of discussions on this forum about that, so I don't need to explain why).... the fact is that the shape of an electric motor power curve is closer to the V6 turbo curve than the V8 NA curve, and therefore closer in terms of driving experience.

[J.A.W.]

Ah, pretty sure that the current F1 turbo mills demonstrate a characteristic ICE climbing torque/rpm = hp curve..
Not so sure that proposed FE electromotive response is - in fact - meaningfully analogous..