Separating car speed from driver speed

[marcush.]

in all fairness to Vergne it speaks volumes about his abilities when ex TR team personel feel the need to comment on him facing the boot...It seems he has not much to provide when it comes to developing the car and that´s inevitably a major drawback especially when the second driver is a rookee.A driver is not only held in high regards because of his ability to conduct a car at the outer rim of adhesion but has to bring this and a lot more to the table (if he can bring money that´s a very good thing ,for example.. ).

[SectorOne]

in all fairness to Vergne it speaks volumes about his abilities when ex TR team personel feel the need to comment on him facing the boot...It seems he has not much to provide when it comes to developing the car and that´s inevitably a major drawback especially when the second driver is a rookee.A driver is not only held in high regards because of his ability to conduct a car at the outer rim of adhesion but has to bring this and a lot more to the table (if he can bring money that´s a very good thing ,for example.. ).

Yea i can feel for Tost in that scenario, he said he hopes he can get a result that he would have had like in Monaco this year, up to 6th and then the team throws him out right in traffic, gets a penalty and race is over.

Tost can only just sit there, take his paycheck and watch the drivers come and go.
Regarding development i think when the car you are driving is essentially a guinea pig for Red Bull it´s very hard to contribute much to the development.

I don´t remember any driver in STR that you can point to and say "yea he definitely helped develop this thing"

[marcush.]

well ..one has to go back to Vettel/Bourdais when Toro Rosso outqualified and outscored the Worksteam and developped the car as much as even bagging RedBulls first victory if that´s not something of a contribution to development ,I don´t know.
Sure we don´t know who exactly was the perfromance driving factor...but it was Vettel who took the performance from TR to RBR and dominanted the other side of the garage for the next years .... sure now Ricciardo is outperforming him ,but who knows what happened over winter to Seb -he looks and behaves very different tbh.Maybe his life has changed more than we realise with having a family and receiving that wake up call with schumachers accident showing how vulnerable your life is even when you are not formula 1 driver. ..

[Andres125sx]

They are just playing a game of let´s ignore Vergne. Ricciardo´s place was set regardless of what Vergne did.

Any reason for that?

There´s a source, or just your toughts?

[SectorOne]

They are just playing a game of let´s ignore Vergne. Ricciardo´s place was set regardless of what Vergne did.

Any reason for that?

No idea, i think it´s quite obvious by now. Ricciardo was set as the poster boy probably since the HRT days.

[Andres125sx]

well ..one has to go back to Vettel/Bourdais when Toro Rosso outqualified and outscored the Worksteam and developped the car as much as even bagging RedBulls first victory if that´s not something of a contribution to development ,I don´t know.
Sure we don´t know who exactly was the perfromance driving factor...but it was Vettel who took the performance from TR to RBR and dominanted the other side of the garage for the next years ...

I´d say Newey had some responsability there...

STR outscored RB because it was 2008. STR was same car as RB, but with Ferrari engine, wich was better than Renault´s RB at that point. Same car, better engine.

Then, next seasson when Vettel jumped to RB in 2009, we entered the diffuser´s era, first with double diffusers, then blown diffusers (also known as the WCC decided at first race era )

Brawn was the first to make a difference with DD, then Newey catched him quite fast. Actually at the end of 2009 RB already was the fastest car. Next seasson Brawn sold the team so he let Newey alone crushing their opponents too easily....

At least that´s how I see it

[Andres125sx]

They are just playing a game of let´s ignore Vergne. Ricciardo´s place was set regardless of what Vergne did.

Any reason for that?

No idea, i think it´s quite obvious by now. Ricciardo was set as the poster boy probably since the HRT days.

If you´re so sure about Ricciardo designment it must be for some reason, right?

It´s not obvious for me, might you explain it?

[SectorOne]

If you´re so sure about Ricciardo designment it must be for some reason, right?
It´s not obvious for me, might you explain it?

Yep, already have explained my view as well.


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Talking of radio, found this gem from Hungary,

Romain Grosjean Ayao Komatsu Yeah I’m OK, but we speak too much on the radio. I think upshift, [unclear].

[Andres125sx]

If you´re so sure about Ricciardo designment it must be for some reason, right?
It´s not obvious for me, might you explain it?

Yep, already have explained my view as well.

I´ve only read you stating Ricciardo has been unfairly favoured, but didn´t read any reason...

I´m missing something?

[PlatinumZealot]

Saying Ricciardo is a much better driver than Vettel is similar to saying Rosberg is a much better driver than Hamilton.

Ermm... I must say no. Your logic is wrong here. For this discussion we must ignore the points and focus on actual performance on the track. Alonso has four times the points as Raikkonen.... is he four times better? Obviously not. And another thing the MErce teammates cannot be compared to the RBR teammates because While Rosberg has more points he has yet to beat Hamilton on the track. The RBR duo on the other Hand.... Vettel has only beat Riccardo on the track only once! While I think Danny Boy has done him over like six times or something.... so just saying your comparison is not really valid when we are talking about car handling characteristics.

[GitanesBlondes]

Guys don't turn this into another stupid driver X is better than driver Y topic please.

The one thing I would add to this topic --and it's a very late response to a few posts from a couple of years back-- is that the Toleman-Hart TG184 was nowhere near being the backmarker people like to think it was. It's the biggest myth from F1's past. Stefan Johansson nearly scored a podium with it the first time he drove it in a race at Monza. It was a midfield car more than anything that could challenge with the right drivers - Johnny Cecotto was not that driver.