no more help for the drivers

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Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: no more help for the drivers

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theblackangus wrote: I have played video games with more control's being used far more actively than an F1 car. Example ARMA III has literally a hundred + controls/options, and before that Tribes 1/2 I used around 136 keys/combinations with roughly 50-75 of those used multiple times per match.

It just doesn't seem like a top level driver should have a hard time with this at all.
Were you sat in a box at 35-45 degC being subjected to vibration and high g loads? Were you sat behind a wall of spray so you couldn't see? Were you physically wheel to wheel with someone at 200mph? Did a mistake risk injury or worse? When you were playing your game and the computer suddenly decided to reboot did you just spill your soda in frustration or did you carry on at 180mph towards that tight right hander whilst simultaneously trying to brake, steer, defend/overtake, and sort the computer problem? Take Kimi's recent issue - he had to remember that the action required for that one issue was P4. P4 was 12 clicks on one button followed by 4 clicks on another button. So he'd have had know what the issue was, then what solutions might work, then remember a set of button pushes then carry them out, without losing count, all whilst driving a vibrating machine that will put him in the barriers if he takes his mind off it. Oh, and he has to race in close proximity with others at high speed at the same time.

Really, comparing video games to real situations is the sort of thing one expects from a ten year old.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

Just_a_fan
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Re: no more help for the drivers

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NTS wrote:It's a bit strange to call this a choice by "the teams not winning", sounds like you're a Mercedes spokesman. Everyone agrees that "brake earlier into turn 11 and earlier apex" is not a welcome part of the sport. There was already a rule in place against it so others asked the FIA to enforce it. That's not about moving to goalposts, but about calling out a practise that we all agree should not be part of the sport. The only thing the FIA did very FIA-like is to overshoot the target and ban everything instead of just driving instructions.
"Everyone" doesn't agree.

Remember double diffusers? Ferrari were against them and was one of the teams protesting. At the hearing it was pointed out to Ferrari that, by the interpretation they were pushing for, their cars were illegal and had been for years. They agreed.

That's what we have here. Teams asking for rule changes/ interpretations on the basis that it will hurt others more than them.

I'd put this one down to a Mercedes-engined team looking at Mercedes having issues with their car that the others don't have. They then reckon they can gain from those issues by preventing the team from working around the problem with the driver.

Double diffusers, EBD, driver radios. All the same underlying issue - one team is better at it than others so they want it stopped.

The rule that's been reinterpreted is the one that was brought in to stop pit to car comms, not pit to driver. As with all FIA implementations, this one is a plaster on a bandage on a cut that isn't there.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

langwadt
langwadt
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Re: no more help for the drivers

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Just_a_fan wrote:
theblackangus wrote: I have played video games with more control's being used far more actively than an F1 car. Example ARMA III has literally a hundred + controls/options, and before that Tribes 1/2 I used around 136 keys/combinations with roughly 50-75 of those used multiple times per match.

It just doesn't seem like a top level driver should have a hard time with this at all.
Were you sat in a box at 35-45 degC being subjected to vibration and high g loads? Were you sat behind a wall of spray so you couldn't see? Were you physically wheel to wheel with someone at 200mph? Did a mistake risk injury or worse? When you were playing your game and the computer suddenly decided to reboot did you just spill your soda in frustration or did you carry on at 180mph towards that tight right hander whilst simultaneously trying to brake, steer, defend/overtake, and sort the computer problem? Take Kimi's recent issue - he had to remember that the action required for that one issue was P4. P4 was 12 clicks on one button followed by 4 clicks on another button. So he'd have had know what the issue was, then what solutions might work, then remember a set of button pushes then carry them out, without losing count, all whilst driving a vibrating machine that will put him in the barriers if he takes his mind off it. Oh, and he has to race in close proximity with others at high speed at the same time.

Really, comparing video games to real situations is the sort of thing one expects from a ten year old.
The drivers are definitely going to have their hands full, at best. Imagine getting a flat spot, the only time they really
have time for fiddle with buttons is on the straights and we've heard several drivers say a flat spot will vibrate so much they can't see

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SectorOne
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Re: no more help for the drivers

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Just_a_fan wrote: I'd put this one down to a Mercedes-engined team looking at Mercedes having issues with their car that the others don't have. They then reckon they can gain from those issues by preventing the team from working around the problem with the driver.
Only one Mercedes powered team is mathematically in with a shot at the WCC.
Between Mercedes and Williams there is a 277 points difference with 301 maximum points still up for grabs.

Do they believe they can get 6 1-2´s in a row and Mercedes not score a single point?
Because that´s what they have to do in order to beat Mercedes in the constructor´s championship.

Mercedes only need another 25-30 points i think to mathematically stop Williams from winning the championship.
But then again, why on earth would Williams try to destroy for Mercedes of all teams? Makes much more sense to go after Red Bull since that´s a much more plausible opponent to beat (still unrealistic though) but they don´t have team radio talks of the same magnitude as Mercedes.

Maybe you mean Mclaren? They are literally not even competing on the same playing field so i can´t see why they too would want to believe a radio ban can benefit them and not Mercedes.
Why they would even have Mercedes in their sights is another point worth making.
"If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then brother that person is a piece of sh*t"

Richard
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Re: no more help for the drivers

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A common theme in this thread and also various blogs on the topic has been that "drivers should drive the car by themselves". It's a wonderfully simple and captivating soundbite. It conjours the image of the drivers wrestling with the wheel, feet dancing on the pedals, fingers dancing on the paddles. A driver with a single minded determination to catch the car in front, to fight off the car behind. A driver in the zone, a subliminal experience where driver and machine are as one. A religious experience.

At the moment the driver has an engineer to monitor the stats, to warn if the diver is going to run out of fuel, or if the tyres are overheating. That allows the driver to focus on the steering wheel, peddles and paddles.

Under the new proposals, the correct sound bite will be "the driver will also need to be the race engineer as well as driving the car".

As for the quality of racing, the danger is that we'll only know about overheating brakes when they fail, or when the overheating light comes up on the driver dash, or the engineer finally comes onto the radio to instruct the driver to retire. Look back at Montreal this year, both Merc cars would have DNFd with overheating brakes. What will be excruciating is that the team will be able to see the problem getting worse on the telemetry and be able to do nothing about it.

IMHO its dumbing down to exclude the race engineer, why not force the drivers to use a slide rule to calculate how much fuel to put in the tank?

The Egg
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Re: no more help for the drivers

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As far as I am aware, teams still have the pit board available. Therefore any important non safety related messages can still be passed to drivers, but only on a lap by lap basis. This is still used in sports like motogp, for example to tell riders to change engine map.

Unless of course the fia decides to make a ruling on pit board messages!

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mikeerfol
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Re: no more help for the drivers

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The Egg wrote:As far as I am aware, teams still have the pit board available. Therefore any important non safety related messages can still be passed to drivers, but only on a lap by lap basis. This is still used in sports like motogp, for example to tell riders to change engine map.

Unless of course the fia decides to make a ruling on pit board messages!
They already did it http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... 27#p532627

The Egg
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Re: no more help for the drivers

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mikeerfol wrote:
The Egg wrote:As far as I am aware, teams still have the pit board available. Therefore any important non safety related messages can still be passed to drivers, but only on a lap by lap basis. This is still used in sports like motogp, for example to tell riders to change engine map.

Unless of course the fia decides to make a ruling on pit board messages!
They already did it http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... 27#p532627
Thanks! Thats a step too far in my opinion. Next step making drivers change their own tyres too?

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FrukostScones
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Re: no more help for the drivers

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mikeerfol wrote:
The Egg wrote:As far as I am aware, teams still have the pit board available. Therefore any important non safety related messages can still be passed to drivers, but only on a lap by lap basis. This is still used in sports like motogp, for example to tell riders to change engine map.

Unless of course the fia decides to make a ruling on pit board messages!
They already did it http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... 27#p532627
WHAT ARE THEY THINKING!

I mean... hello?
Finishing races is important, but racing is more important.

Just_a_fan
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Re: no more help for the drivers

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SectorOne wrote:
Just_a_fan wrote: I'd put this one down to a Mercedes-engined team looking at Mercedes having issues with their car that the others don't have. They then reckon they can gain from those issues by preventing the team from working around the problem with the driver.
Only one Mercedes powered team is mathematically in with a shot at the WCC.
Between Mercedes and Williams there is a 277 points difference with 301 maximum points still up for grabs.
[...]
Why they would even have Mercedes in their sights is another point worth making.
Two things come to mind (one more serious than the other):
1. Teams get money and prestige from finishing higher up the results tables. Anything that might improve their final points tally will be seized upon. McLaren aren't doing very well at the moment so if one or more other cars falls over, especially at the front of the field, they might get more points and thus do better in the year-end carve up of money etc. Also, there would be a little bit of cachet if the Mercedes team struggled and the other Mercedes teams didn't. After all, Mercedes' installation isn't the same as the others' so it may be that the performance gain they have has been the result of the team being able to get the drivers to fine tune the systems as they go. Remove that and suddenly the other Mercedes teams look a little better.
2. McLaren might prefer it if Hamilton didn't win the title in the Mercedes (this is a bit of a conspiracy theory, really, but these days it wouldn't surprise me - especially after Eric came out with the line that the changes were needed because the radio traffic was pushing fans away. If that's the case Eric, just stop FOM broadcasting the messages to the fans!)

I think 1. is the real reason - an attempt to salvage points and thus prize money at the end of the year.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

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strad
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Re: no more help for the drivers

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In answer,, there have been many times where the messages back and forth have shown that the drivers do not know all the buttons and switches and or what they do.. Especially in combination. :wink:
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

andartop
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Re: no more help for the drivers

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This whole issue is so wrong I don't know where to begin..
The fact that it is totally unfair to enforce a rule that may have such an impact halfway through the championship?
Potential safety issues - since the cars were designed without this in mind?
The typical FIA knee jerk reaction?
The lack of testing?

But on the other hand:
How silly it is to have messages like the aforementioned to Checo?
The fact the Teams brought this upon themselves (and us)?
That F1 has not been a sport for quite some time, so why are we surprised?

Or, looking in the mirror, all us 'hardcore fans' who keep moaning about everything but still follow this silly Wacky Races World Championship no matter what? I mean, couple of years ago all the 'hardcore fans' in the UK were moaning about the sell-out to Sky and BBC's stupid idea of broadcasting only half the races live, and how many of us did actually sign the petition - in a country of 63 million that prides itself as the 'cradle of motorsport'? About 45000, not even half the number required to bring the issue into debate.

The only way to make F1 a sport again is for all of us to stop watching, attending, debating and caring about it. Let them race with empty grandstands. Let them see their viewing figures take a dive. Let them know we don't want to buy this product any more because it is cr@p. Only then might they care about the actual racing again. I want loud noise, powerful cars, smell of petrol and the best drivers in the world, not double points for the last race, energy recovery systems, inconsistent penalties, random rule changes and genetically engineered driver bots.
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. H.P.Lovecraft

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SectorOne
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Re: no more help for the drivers

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Just_a_fan wrote:Two things come to mind (one more serious than the other):
1. Teams get money and prestige from finishing higher up the results tables.
Oh i´m with you on that.
Just that it makes very little sense to start poking Mercedes rather then poking the teams they are actually fighting.
Just_a_fan wrote:McLaren aren't doing very well at the moment so if one or more other cars falls over, especially at the front of the field, they might get more points and thus do better in the year-end carve up of money etc.
But again it´s not very smart to go after Mercedes (which was your original statement)

An example. Mercedes has massive problems with this radio ban (for whatever reason)
Ok good, Mclaren now gained a place in the race. However so did their competitors that are already ahead of them.
And with the way the points are distributed they are more likely to experience an increase in the gap to it´s closest rivals, namely Ferrari, Williams and Red Bull.

As far as Mclaren are concerned, where they are right now they actually benefit from Mercedes taking the top two spots every race.
Just_a_fan wrote:Also, there would be a little bit of cachet if the Mercedes team struggled and the other Mercedes teams didn't. After all, Mercedes' installation isn't the same as the others' so it may be that the performance gain they have has been the result of the team being able to get the drivers to fine tune the systems as they go. Remove that and suddenly the other Mercedes teams look a little better.
Futile things if you ask me. Look a little better makes no difference if you yourself can´t even get into Q3 from time to time.

Take reliability. The Mercedes haven´t had the best of the lot but does that really make the other teams look better?
I doubt it.
And even if it did, looking better has no use in Formula 1, what counts is WCC position, that determines how good looking you really are.
"If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then brother that person is a piece of sh*t"

jwielage
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Re: no more help for the drivers

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With respect to the lack of radio communications inducing more failures:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that communications from the pit wall would be legal if they were for the purposes of "safety". With this in mind the key is how one interprets "safety". One could argue that any problem with the potential of causing a retirement is a safety issue, even if that problem doesn't cause the potential of a "high speed" failure. For example, say a car slows to a halt on a relatively tame part of the race track because the car fails. This could pose a safety threat to other drivers on track or could trigger a safety car. These type of unexpected events always have safety implications, not only for the drivers, but the track workers (think Canada, didn't a track marshal die?).

So in sum one could make the argument that any information relating to the reliability of the car is a safety issue and should thus be legal. I hope this is the interpretation the FIA takes. However this also has problems, as engineers could become clever in how they word their "safety related" communications. For example an engineer could say "Nico, your brakes are getting cold going into turn 10, you need to watch after your brakes or they could fail". This could be code for your braking too soon, a communication that is clearly not in the spirit of the "safety" exemption.

In sum I think I just contradicted my original point, this is going to be a mess one way or another.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so" - Mark Twain

Richard
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Re: no more help for the drivers

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jwielage wrote: For example an engineer could say "Nico, your brakes are getting cold going into turn 10, you need to watch after your brakes or they could fail". This could be code for your braking too soon, a communication that is clearly not in the spirit of the "safety" exemption.
That's banned. My understanding is that they could only tell a driver to stop in that scenario. They can't even say the brakes are getting too hot:
FIA Memorandum c/o Adam Cooper wrote:Messages not permitted (either by radio or pit board) ... Warning on brake wear or temperatures (will only be enforced from the Japanese GP onwards).

Messages permitted (for the avoidance of doubt) ... Dealing with a DRS system failure

http://adamcooperf1.com/2014/09/15/f1s- ... t-allowed/
I'm curious that "Dealing with a DRS system failure" is allowed but other systems aren't mentioned. So when we hear drivers saying they've got malfunction lights then the team aren't allowed to talk them through a reset? That would have stuffed Hamilton's race at Monza because the team needed to identify the fault with his power unit. Can you imagine the pain of team watching their car limp around a circuit knowing that a few switches could reset the power unit? The FIA want a car in limp mode to demonstrate the driver driving the car? That's the outcome of wanting more competitive racing? I hope I've misread the rules.

I presume the teams are franticly coding warning protocols for the dash display so the dash display will replicate much of the race engineers' decision making. I guess that is why some of the bans don't come in until Japan, the teams need time to develop the systems and train the drivers.