Rear Wing Idea

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trinidefender
trinidefender
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Joined: 19 Apr 2013, 20:37

Rear Wing Idea

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Sorry if this has been presented before but are there any regulations stopping any teams from applying vortex generators on the lower side of rear wings? I'm sure you have all seen pictures of them on top of the sidepods where they help to keep flow attached to the bodywork especially when the car is under yaw.

Strategically done I wouldn't be surprised if they would be able to allow teams to run even more rear wing angle and gain more downforce especially on low speed and/or high downforce tracks I.e. Monaco.

Here is a picture of them being applied to small general aviation aircraft wing:
Image

Btw if this idea has been suggested I don't intend to steal anybody's idea.

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hollus
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Re: Rear Wing Idea

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T.R. 3.10 describes the rear wing. I think that would violate the underlined part.

3.10 Bodywork behind the rear wheel centre line :
3.10.1 Other than the bodywork defined in Article 3.10.8, any bodywork behind a point lying 50mm forward of the rear wheel centre line which is more than 750mm above the reference plane, and less than 355mm from the car centre line, must lie in an area when viewed from the side of the car that is situated between the rear wheel centre line and a point 350mm behind it.
With the exception of minimal parts solely associated with adjustment of the section in accordance with Article 3.18 :
a) When viewed from the side of the car, no longitudinal vertical cross section may have more than two sections in this area, each of which must be closed.
b) No part of these longitudinal vertical cross sections in contact with the external air stream may have a local concave radius of curvature smaller than 100mm.
Once the rearmost and uppermost section is defined, 'gurney' type trim tabs may be fitted to the trailing edge. When measured in any longitudinal vertical cross section no dimension of any such trim tab may exceed 20mm.
The chord of the rearmost and uppermost closed section must always be smaller than the chord of the lowermost section at the same lateral station.
Furthermore, the distance between adjacent sections at any longitudinal vertical plane must lie between 10mm and 15mm at their closest position, except, in accordance with Article 3.18, when this distance must lie between 10mm and 65mm.
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hollus
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Re: Rear Wing Idea

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Interestingly it does explicitly mention a concave radius, no mention of a convex radius... I guess that leaves some scope for bump-like vortex generators, if not for full blown tabs like in your pic. If the "bumps" are in a very sharply convex section of the underwing... maybe it is not that impossible.
Rivals, not enemies.

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matt21
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Joined: 15 Mar 2010, 13:17

Re: Rear Wing Idea

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hollus wrote:Interestingly it does explicitly mention a concave radius, no mention of a convex radius... I guess that leaves some scope for bump-like vortex generators, if not for full blown tabs like in your pic. If the "bumps" are in a very sharply convex section of the underwing... maybe it is not that impossible.
Maybe something like this (frome Mulsannescorner.com):
Image

Image

Blanchimont
Blanchimont
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Joined: 09 Nov 2012, 23:47

Re: Rear Wing Idea

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As hollus pointed out, the 100mm radius rule limits the design.

Another approach could be to simply increase the surface roughness(is this regulated?) on the lowest parts of the lower side. Today's surfaces seem very smooth to me. Increasing the roughness also increases the turbulence near it and helps the flow to stay attached downstream, helping in generating downforce at high angles of attack.
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trinidefender
trinidefender
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Re: Rear Wing Idea

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Oh, well those goes that idea out of the window. I wouldn't be surprised if McLaren are trying to achieve the same effect with the tubercles on their rear wing.

As far as I'm aware from reading and so on the primary function of those bumps that were placed along the rear wing were drag reduction. The gurney flaps were mandated to exist and using the bumps meant that they could lean some of the gurney flap backward shedding drag.

wesley123
wesley123
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Re: Rear Wing Idea

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Indeed, those bumps on the OAK Racing car existed solely to reduce the angle of the mandatory gurney flap, reducing drag, Peugeot took that design even further.

Not sure if the idea has any benefit though. The use of vortices on airplanes are either used where their initial design has issues(think DC9, or was it the DC10 that had a large VG on the engine pod because the pod connection to the wing reduced lift, or to extend the lift through high ranges of maneuverability(Think fighter planes).

F1 wings don't operate through a high range of AoA conditions and the wing box is generally designed to work in their high AoA setting. Therefore I think that F1 wings don't really benefit from vortices like an airplane(as pictured in the OP) does.
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

trinidefender
trinidefender
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Joined: 19 Apr 2013, 20:37

Re: Rear Wing Idea

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wesley123 wrote:Indeed, those bumps on the OAK Racing car existed solely to reduce the angle of the mandatory gurney flap, reducing drag, Peugeot took that design even further.

Not sure if the idea has any benefit though. The use of vortices on airplanes are either used where their initial design has issues(think DC9, or was it the DC10 that had a large VG on the engine pod because the pod connection to the wing reduced lift, or to extend the lift through high ranges of maneuverability(Think fighter planes).

F1 wings don't operate through a high range of AoA conditions and the wing box is generally designed to work in their high AoA setting. Therefore I think that F1 wings don't really benefit from vortices like an airplane(as pictured in the OP) does.
Coming from an aviation background I can see other situations where vortex generators are used that you may not have thought of that doesn't have anything to do with bad design.

1. Gate constraints. Commercial aircraft are designed to fit in certain gate sizes. Why not just design the wing to fit into a wider gate slot you ask? Money that's why. It costs a lot of extra money to rent larger gates at airports. Therefore some airframe manufacturers put vortex generators or design sub par cruise performance wings just so customer companies have access to smaller gates with still quite a large passenger load. The vortex generators allow an airframe manufacturer to create a smaller wing with the same lift capacity as a larger wing with slightly reduced lift:drag efficiency. *a gate used in this context is not a physical gate. It is the place where aircraft board and de-board passengers and cargo. Many time the aircrafts is connected to the terminal building by a walkway*

2. Using an aircraft outside of its original design envelope. Many times commercial (and general aviation) aircraft have to fly into short runways or maybe the airport is among mountains or whatever have you. This factor may influence a company to run short on passengers or cargo to reduce landing weights and hence reduce required approach speeds etc. By using vortex generators, a wing can operate through larger angles of attack and therefore have a lower certified stall speed or a higher payload at a given approach/landing speed. This is why many general aviation aircraft have them fitted as an aftermarket addon to allow them to carry more of their very restricted payload into the smallest runways.

3. Most delta wing configurations above 45 degrees of sweep generate much of their low speed lift through the use of vortex generators. Vortices form along the leading edge of the wing and flow back along the top surface of the wing. Some delta wings have vortex generators as well to enhance this effect and their low speed performance.

You say that F1 wings don't operate in a large range of AoA situations. That I agree with. However I must add that they almost always run very close to stall, with some teams even having problems last year with part of their rear wing stalling *cough cough ferrari*. Therefore it may be beneficial for some teams if they could run vortex generators on their rear wings which can allow them to run with less risk of stalling their wing or running the wing at a higher AoA

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variante
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Re: Rear Wing Idea

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I tested that solution (with CFD) on a rear wing just a week ago and it did produce positive results (...after all, decades of aviation confirm the usefulness of VGs on high AoA wings. No doubt about that)

As already pointed out, there are legality issues when it comes to F1.

BUT, would it be legal to put a VG in the "free" 200mm zone in the middle of the wing? Or to integrate VGs in the connection between the wing itself and the two pylons sustaining it (still in the middle of the wing)?

riff_raff
riff_raff
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Re: Rear Wing Idea

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Commercial jet aircraft use all sorts of vortex generating devices. Often they are now used to reduce turbulence noise generated from things like landing gear during landing. One obvious example of a vortex generating device used on commercial jet aircraft are the vertical winglets used on the wing tips. These devices redirect the vortices produced at the wing tips in a way that significantly reduces drag.
"Q: How do you make a small fortune in racing?
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McMrocks
McMrocks
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Joined: 14 Apr 2012, 17:58

Re: Rear Wing Idea

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RB used such VG's at the central part of the diffuser:
http://i.imgur.com/qfNSSb1.jpg

trinidefender
trinidefender
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Joined: 19 Apr 2013, 20:37

Re: Rear Wing Idea

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riff_raff wrote:Commercial jet aircraft use all sorts of vortex generating devices. Often they are now used to reduce turbulence noise generated from things like landing gear during landing. One obvious example of a vortex generating device used on commercial jet aircraft are the vertical winglets used on the wing tips. These devices redirect the vortices produced at the wing tips in a way that significantly reduces drag.
riff_raff those vertical winglets are not "vortex generating devices" they are actually there to reduce the size of the vortices and to move the vortices away from the lift generating portions of the wing. The vertical wingtips are placed at a 'zero' angle of attack in the vertical plane. This way there is as small a pressure differential as possible between the two sides. This reduces the size of the vortices and hence the drag. It also stops part of the end of the wing having a vortex rotating around it and with it the smaller vortex increases the effectiveness of the end of the wing.

riff_raff
riff_raff
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Re: Rear Wing Idea

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trinidefender-

The winglets (or tip sails) used on commercial jet aircraft are vortex generating devices. The tip vortexes they generate are simply created in a way that reduces drag and improves lift of the main wing spans.
"Q: How do you make a small fortune in racing?
A: Start with a large one!"

olefud
olefud
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Joined: 13 Mar 2011, 00:10
Location: Boulder, Colorado USA

Re: Rear Wing Idea

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riff_raff wrote:trinidefender-

The winglets (or tip sails) used on commercial jet aircraft are vortex generating devices. The tip vortexes they generate are simply created in a way that reduces drag and improves lift of the main wing spans.

Don’t winglets diminish span wise flow? Wings have differing pressures on the top and bottom that induce such flow that, in turn, generate wingtip vortices. The winglets in the simplest sense blow such wasteful vortexes.

trinidefender
trinidefender
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Joined: 19 Apr 2013, 20:37

Re: Rear Wing Idea

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riff_raff wrote:trinidefender-

The winglets (or tip sails) used on commercial jet aircraft are vortex generating devices. The tip vortexes they generate are simply created in a way that reduces drag and improves lift of the main wing spans.

"Unequal pressure, however, also causes air at each wingtip to flow outward along the lower surface, around the tip, and inboard along the upper surface producing a whirlwind of air called a wingtip vortex. The effect of these vortices is increased drag and reduced lift that results in less flight efficiency and higher fuel costs.

Winglets, which are airfoils operating just like a sailboat tacking upwind, produce a forward thrust inside the circulation field of the vortices and reduce their strength. Weaker vortices mean less drag at the wingtips and lift is restored. Improved wing efficiency translates to more payload, reduced fuel consumption, and a longer cruising range that can allow an air carrier to expand routes and destinations."

Still want to try to tell me that they are vortex GENERATING types? The winglets reduce the size and strength of a wingtip vortex that is present on a winglet-less wing design. In actuality fact you can say that they are vortex reducing devices.

My source, of which I can find many others: http://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/abou ... -DFRC.html