Will Ricciardo hamper Vettel's stats?

[PlatinumZealot]

It was not too long ago when there was much talk about not if, but when Vettel will eclipse Schumacher's records. You know, most people simply expected that Vettel would carry on in his Newey Machines taking pole after pole and win after win for the rest of the decade. It was like a never ending nightmare to some F1 fans. Alas, things seem a little brighter for them now. Things have changed so much in one years time. We have this impressive young man, Daniel Ricciardo - aka the honey badger - in the other Red Bull seat. Do you guys think he will he be a huge impediment to Vettel's rapid growth of statistics if ever the Red Bull car is dominant again?

[SiLo]

Simple answer; yes.

[SectorOne]

I still feel that Vettel is the faster driver if you talk about ultimate pace but isn´t it interesting hearing Alonso a couple years back echoing what most of us have been saying all along? That is, "the next couple years will be very interesting for Vettel"

He was dead on the money with that one. Same when he and Hamilton used to throw superlatives at each other then people claimed it was to mess with Vettel psychologically.
Today though i think most of us realize Alonso said those things about Hamilton because he genuinely ment it.
And for Hamilton the same thing, as i think most of us would agree full stop that Alonso is probably the greatest talent of our generation, a true maestro.

[SilverArrow10]

Vettel is still one of F1's elite, along with Hamilton and Alonso, they are the ones at the top of all the stats. I don't think Vettel will beat Schumacher's records, and because of that he will always be in his shadow which is a shame for him. But he still has a lot to be proud of. It is a golden age for F1 drivers in my opinion. We have a Schumacher, Prost and Senna in Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton, and young pretenders that could one day join the elite themselves.

[Andres125sx]

I think the same about Vettel than I do with Kimi.... if you need a perfect car to be fast, you´re not that good

But I don´t know if Ricciardo´s perfomance will be good at any situation so it´s hard to say. HRT crew said Ric is really good, but their references were not top level drivers exactly . At STR he did it similar to Vergne, he was beaten first seasson and he beated the french next one


Difficult to say, but I still have the feeling Vettel is 4 times WDC because of Newey´s car and most drivers in the grid would have same track record.... or even better (2009). Just a feeling tough


He can be really really fast, don´t get me wrong, but I would never compare him with Prost, Senna, etc., as I´d never compare Kimi to those. They are very good and fast drivers, but that´s a different league

[FoxHound]

Will Ricciardo hamper Vettel's stats?
He already has.

[...]I still have the feeling Vettel is 4 times WDC because of Newey´s car[...]

You are not alone. Even people without a week to week interest in F1 can decipher that Newey's genius was the predominant factor in Vettel and Red Bulls success. Yes, the car does not drive itself.
However, the car is the biggest factor when the difference between drivers is smaller than the difference between cars.

I'm not anti-Vettel in this, because many drivers have garnered immortal status driving superior machinery. Senna, Fangio and Schumacher among those.
But I can never recall these guys struggling and getting beaten consistently by an unrenowned driver as Ricciardo.
But it's at this point I'd add that, perhaps Ricciardo is a bit special and Vettel is just unfortunate to be hit by an unseen badger missile.

But it disappoints me to read a story this morning of Vettel blaming the car for his woes.

"Every time I want to push or make something happen, it just doesn't,"

Ok, fair enough, but is this not called the art of driving for a reason?

"I think it is a characteristic of this year's car in combination with the downforce we have, with the tyres. It just maybe doesn't give me yet what I want in a certain area of the corner"

Again, fair play. But, why is it that Ricciardo seems to be more adept at handling it?

Autosport seem to have an idea.

Vettel's problems are partly to do with the way the car rotates on corner entry, but he has also lost some advantage he had from recent years in exploiting the blown diffuser concept - which produced more downforce at the rear of the car.

These issues were raised by a few members on this site, so were not totally out of leftfield. But the Red Bull car is still the second best out there, and Ricciardo has shone brighter still. Could it be because he has driven cars with less dependence on the rear biased exhaust driven aero than Vettel, and therefore has better knowledge in how to deal with this issue of the way the car rotates on entry to a corner?

I'd bet this is the case.

So if it is a case of the car not suiting him this year, perhaps this trend of not "suiting" him could be set to continue for the forseeable future? I will wait until the end of the season before making a full assessment on the situation, as would be fair.

[Andres125sx]

But it's at this point I'd add that, perhaps Ricciardo is a bit special and Vettel is just unfortunate to be hit by an unseen badger missile.

Exactly my thoughts

I´m wondering how good is Ricciardo, and I think that actually will be one of the main factors to evaluate Vettel´s talent. If Ricciardo proves to be a really good driver, then Vettel could survive the comparison. If Ricciardo finally is not that good, then Vettel will be seen as a lucky guy who drove one of the best cars ever

Similar to Ferrari/Alonso, till last seasson there was people wondering if Ferrari was that slow or Alonso was not that good. Massa was never considered a good reference (how many times did I read he was not the same since the accident? Cant count). Now with Kimi there´s no doubt. Moreover, Massa is performing quite good with Williams, not consistently, but he´s done a pole and a podium, something inconceivable with Ferrari last seassons. So there´s no doubt where the problem is.... Domenicalli fired, Montezemolo fired

[Andres125sx]

Anycase Vettel can only be seen as a fast driver, some people was stating he was one of the greats... the great are not beaten like he´s being beated by Ricciardo, never. Prost never lost so many points with Senna. Senna never lost so many points with Prost. Even if Ricciardo proves to be a great, Vettel will not

[Jano11]

Difficult to say, but I still have the feeling Vettel is 4 times WDC because of Newey´s car and most drivers in the grid would have same track record.... or even better (2009). Just a feeling tough

Most drivers on the grid would have been 2nd to Webber in those RBs, not just a feeling.

[Edax]

Will Ricciardo hamper Vettel's stats?
[snip]

These issues were raised by a few members on this site, so were not totally out of leftfield. But the Red Bull car is still the second best out there, and Ricciardo has shone brighter still. Could it be because he has driven cars with less dependence on the rear biased exhaust driven aero than Vettel, and therefore has better knowledge in how to deal with this issue of the way the car rotates on entry to a corner?

I'd bet this is the case.

So if it is a case of the car not suiting him this year, perhaps this trend of not "suiting" him could be set to continue for the forseeable future? I will wait until the end of the season before making a full assessment on the situation, as would be fair.

I do have some questions along this line of reasoning.

I was lucky enough to get to Spa this year. Standing in one corner and watching the cars passing one by one, really brings out the differences between the cars. And for me it looked like the Red Bull easily was the second best in the handling department. You could see that at the bus stop, Rivage and especially EauRouge/Radillion. They were riding up there as if on a rail.

If I compare that to the Force India's which seemed to produce a heart stopping step-out every time they were cresting eau rouge on a fast lap. Or the Ferrari, which needed to be man-handled to the top (With Alonso the inside rear was even bouncing around mid corner). Also the Williams seems to be fast but tricky.

Anyway when you say that Vettels lackluster performance is caused by the change in handling. I still have the feeling that the RB handles better than anything out there.

So what would happen if we put Vettel in car with real handling issues like a Ferrari or a Williams or a Force India?

[FoxHound]

Anyway when you say that Vettels lackluster performance is caused by the change in handling. I still have the feeling that the RB handles better than anything out there.

So what would happen if we put Vettel in car with real handling issues like a Ferrari or a Williams or a Force India?

The RB10 is as stable a base as I've seen this year, barring the W05 which is on it's own planet in outright performance terms.
Stability is essential to extract more from the package, as we all know.

So what would happen if we put Vettel into a Ferrari or Williams or Force India? Well, there are no verifiable facts on this just speculation.
But if Vettel is persona miserable because the rear of the car is not agreeing with the angle of steering into a corner, in an RB10....then he will certainly be Persona miserable in extremis in the aforementioned cars.
They have less rear end stability to my eyes, and therefore would exacerbate Vettel's issues exponentially.

He likes a bolted down arse. But there is the small matter of other drivers wanting and not getting bolted down arses, and yet still performing well. Alonso and Bottas being honorable mentions here.

Anycase Vettel can only be seen as a fast driver, some people was stating he was one of the greats... the great are not beaten like he´s being beated by Ricciardo, never. Prost never lost so many points with Senna. Senna never lost so many points with Prost. Even if Ricciardo proves to be a great, Vettel will not

Vettel could yet comeback and beat Ricciardo in the standings this year. And we have to factor in just how good is Ricciardo exactly.
In 2013 Vergne managed an average start of 13.37 to Ricciardo's 10.53, and an average finish of 12.23 against 11.29.
What is also interesting from the data, is that Vergne failed to score any points after Canada, the 7th race of the season.
Of course there was a tyre construction change(Germany 2013) that happened at exactly the same point as Vergne's collapse.
So they are in effect very closely matched.

In 2012 the numbers tell a similar story but even more closely matched.
Vergne's average start was 16.90 compare to Ricciardo's 14.70. The average finish was 12.25 for Vergne and 12.05 for Ricciardo.
So while we can say Ricciardo did have the upper hand, Vergne had the measure of him for some spells too, even outscoring him in 2012.

And Vergne now has Kvyat, whom has done fairly well in comparison to Vergne.
Average start is nigh on identical...11.07 for Vergne versus 11.14 for Kvyat.
Average finish is 10.00 for Vergne, and 11.10 for Kvyat.

So about a gnat's scrotum hair off of being equal.

Now I don't believe this is a very scientific deduction, but I'm gonna blunder my way through it anyway.
If Vergne can live with Ricciardo, and beat him 2 times out of 5, and then be matched by this chap...


...While Ricciardo is beating Vettel, would it be too far a stretch of the imagination to see Kvyat or Vergne beating Vettel if they rode the same cow?
And if this where to be the case, would Vergne and Kvyat also be considered as greats in waiting, as Ricciardo.
Or alternatively, would it just be that Vettel's legacy was built on hot air.....if you excuse my pun.

So a lot of food for thought, but pure conjecture as we don't have complete information on any of it as yet.

[prince]

The funny thing in any discipline is that, success totally masks the shortcomings. There were a great deal of people who felt Vettel is better than Senna, in fact the "BEST" ever, purely because of the speed he was achieving through those wonderful machines. Remember Mr. Marko's classic last year, "Vettel is better than Lewis and Nico put together" and then, there were doubters. I am quite sure Jenson Button would have been hailed the same had the BGP001 would have continued to perform the whole year and years after with RBResque budget, pity that the saga was short lived. People were eager to see what Vettel can do in a "NOT THE BEST" machine and atleast for now, the circle seems to be complete.

Will Ricciardo hamper Vettel's stats?
As far as Race Wins and Championships are concerned, I think we will never get an answer as there is very little to suggest that RBR will ever make another dominant car. Vettel, with proven (arguable) credentials, will stand better chances to move to greener pastures.

On another note, looking at how Ricciardo has been performing, I couldn't stop concluding how pathetic Mark Webber was.

Regarding breaking Schumacher's records, I was running through some statistics and saw that from 1991-2006, with varying generation of cars and regulations, the man has finished with 7 titles, two Second Places, 3 third places, one fourth and one fifth (1999 - title contender before leg-breaking accident). In 1996 when he joined Ferrari, he promised to win 3 races that year and people laughed as it was ages that a Ferrari had PREDICTABLY won, but he did it. So it was not just the 7 titles that need a beating, but the whole career. It goes on to show how adaptable Schumacher was. I couldn't find another driver who has fought for championship for almost all his career.

[djos]

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On another note, looking at how Ricciardo has been performing, I couldn't stop concluding how pathetic Mark Webber was.

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What a load of BS, Webber was at the very end of his F1 career when he finally got a decent car and nearly won the WDC in 2010, even Shuey couldn't keep up with Rosberg in his last years at Mercedes and Webber wiped the floor with Rosberg at Williams!

Had f1 not moved to the worst tires in f1 history from 2011 onwards I think Webber would have been a genuine contender in 2011 and 2012 too.

[mikeerfol]

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On another note, looking at how Ricciardo has been performing, I couldn't stop concluding how pathetic Mark Webber was.

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What a load of BS, Webber was at the very end of his F1 career when he finally got a decent car and nearly won the WDC in 2010, even Shuey couldn't keep up with Rosberg in his last years at Mercedes and Webber wiped the floor with Rosberg at Williams!

Had f1 not moved to the worst tires in f1 history from 2011 onwards I think Webber would have been a genuine contender in 2011 and 2012 too.

Yeah, it's true the Pirellis destroyed Webber's advantage in high speed corners.

[prince]

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On another note, looking at how Ricciardo has been performing, I couldn't stop concluding how pathetic Mark Webber was.

.

What a load of BS, Webber was at the very end of his F1 career when he finally got a decent car and nearly won the WDC in 2010, even Shuey couldn't keep up with Rosberg in his last years at Mercedes and Webber wiped the floor with Rosberg at Williams!

Had f1 not moved to the worst tires in f1 history from 2011 onwards I think Webber would have been a genuine contender in 2011 and 2012 too.

RB5 with which Vettel ended Second in the championship, was the same car that Mark was driving when he was 33. At 33, Michael was 5 time champion and he then added another 3. Mark had the same car that Sebastian had from 2009, with which he was 4th, 3rd, 3rd, 6th and 3rd.

Worst tyres??? It was the same for everyone. Where was adaptability? It is the same for everyone now, where Vettel is struggling. Adaptability?