Will Ricciardo hamper Vettel's stats?

[prince]

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On another note, looking at how Ricciardo has been performing, I couldn't stop concluding how pathetic Mark Webber was.

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What a load of BS, Webber was at the very end of his F1 career when he finally got a decent car and nearly won the WDC in 2010, even Shuey couldn't keep up with Rosberg in his last years at Mercedes and Webber wiped the floor with Rosberg at Williams!

Had f1 not moved to the worst tires in f1 history from 2011 onwards I think Webber would have been a genuine contender in 2011 and 2012 too.

RB5 with which Vettel ended Second in the championship, was the same car that Mark was driving when he was 33. At 33, Michael was 5 time champion and he then added another 2. Mark had the same car that Sebastian had from 2009, with which he was 4th, 3rd, 3rd, 6th and 3rd.

Worst tyres??? It was the same for everyone. Where was adaptability? It is the same for everyone now, where Vettel is struggling. Adaptability?

Very end of F1 career? Doesn't that logic apply to Michael as well, when he started driving for Merc when he was 41?

[antsyd]

I don't think it will. 4 x WDC's puts Vettel among the best of the best. There may be fatigue this year. If he see's he is in with a chance in next season, he could possibly wipe the floor with Ricciardo.

[JimClarkFan]

What a load of BS, Webber was at the very end of his F1 career when he finally got a decent car and nearly won the WDC in 2010, even Shuey couldn't keep up with Rosberg in his last years at Mercedes and Webber wiped the floor with Rosberg at Williams!

Hamilton – 346 (190) – 54.9%
Vettel – 274 (281) – 102.6%
Webber – 227 (179) – 78.9%
Button – 185 (188) – 101.6%
Alonso – 161 (278) – 172.7%
Grosjean – 122 (96) – 78.7%
Raikkonen – 121 (207) – 171.1%
Schumacher – 119 (49) – 41.2%
Maldonado – 113 (45) – 39.8%
Rosberg – 99 (93) – 93.9%
Massa – 79 (122) – 154.4%
Kobayashi – 51 (60) – 117.6%
Perez – 39 (66) – 169.2%
Hulkenberg – 34 (63) – 185.3%
di Resta – 28 (46) – 164.3%
Ricciardo – 9 (10) – 111.1%
Senna – 3 (31) – 1033.3%
Vergne – 0 (16)

Schumacher had a better qualifying record than Rosberg in 2012, he had abysmal luck in the race for the entire two years at Mercedes but Rosberg was not faster on out and out pace.

Regarding Vettel, in my opinion he was never a great, having 4 world championships to your name doesn't mean you are a great - he found himself in the right place at the right time. This year has showed his true colours I feel, still one of the best on the grid but not at the level of others. I don't mean that as a slight to him, because I think he is one of the nicest guys on the paddock.

The true class is Alonso, maybe the best of all time, though now late in his career his stats will never point to him as being the best because ever since 2007 and his split from Mclaren he has never found the car he needed to win a WDC. He, and Hamilton to a lesser extent (possibly Ricciardo if he keeps this up) are the only guys who you can point to and say their talent has outshone their car.

[Mamba]

This years cars are very different to last years. Red Bull could possibly close the gap to Mercedes next year or in 2016, barring that McLaren-Honda will not be the next team to beat. If Vettel sees that he stands a chance he will go for it. Perhaps Riccardo is not used to having the "perfect car" in terms of driveability and all those things, so he can adapt easier to driving the next generation where as Vettel has grown used to having a car that will get him a WDC and is fully to his liking.

MAMBA

[Phil]

I may not be a fan of Vettel, but I have to say, the way he drove that RedBull in pretty much all years from 2010 to 2012 (especially the later two) was a sight to behold. I remember qualifying laps of his, like in Singapore or others, where he was just on it. Made me wonder if there was anyone that you could put into that same car and get the same out of it. Even Alonso or Hamilton (who occasionally, in a McLaren, managed to stick his own car on pole mind you), I think they would have had quite a fight on their hands challenging Vettel in that/those car(s).

As much as this year is doing damage to Vettel - I do think that people tend to overlook the fact that each car of a particular season requires a certain skillset. Vettel matched that skillset in pretty much all of the 4 seasons where he won a title. This year, the skillset has changed and it just doesn't suit him as perfectly as the other cars did. This means he needs to adapt his driving to exploit the car to the fullest. Arguably, Ricciardo is just doing a much better job, because it suits his driving-style better.

The same pretty much applies to Schumacher as well. He may be old, but I think what hampered him most in his comeback wasn't his age, it was especially the different driving characteristics of the cars and especially the tires. Doesn't make him a bad driver, nor should it mean that Vettel isn't in todays car. He still has the skill, but perhaps there are just certain drivers, who have a more narrow window on how they perform best, compared to others who prove to be a bit more adaptable. Alonso certainly comes across as a very adaptable driver - so does Hamilton. Button seems to be on the other end of the scale, requiring a car that suits his driving style perfectly. I think what this year shows, is that perhaps Vettel isn't as adaptable either - or it may all just be because he perfected driving the EBD cars to such an extent, that he requires more time to get used to driving without.

Despite all this; in the WDC standings, it is 124 points (Vettel) vs 181 points (Ricciardo). That's 57 points of a difference. Now, Ricciardo had his 2nd place disqualified in Australia (18 points), but at the same time, it's hard to find a driver more unlucky this season than Vettel. With all the technical issues he's had, I personally think it's rather impressive that he trails his team-mate by only 57 points. And while factoring that in - there's also another point that Ricciardo's 3 wins have come with a fair share of luck of failing Mercedes ahead of him. All the while, what Ricciardo is achieving this year is nothing short of impressive stuff. Just don't discount Vettel yet. He's narrowed the gap quite a bit in qualifyings and isn't too far off in race pace anymore. Come 2015, I think both him and Vettel will be very close.

[Edax]

The true class is Alonso, maybe the best of all time,

I find that a suprisingly bold statement especially from someone that calls himself a JimClarkcan. Not that I'm not impressed by Alonso's driving, but of all time's?

Anyway back to Vettel. I was just thinking. One of the things Vettel is really good at is driving ahead of the field. Give him clean air and like Schumacher he is able to hit every apex with millimeter precision. If you give Vettel 20 meters at the start he's gone and you probably wont see him back till after the finish.

However like Schumacher he has been less impressive in traffic (barring some inspired drives). There he looses out to streetfighters like Hamilton, Alonso and apparently Ricciardo. They are quite comfortable with having to throw a car around in turbulent air and having a lot of distraction.

Might be that it is not so much the characteristics of the car, that is bothering him, but the position he is driving.

[wgknestrick]

I think Vettel became "programmed" to drive the blown diffuser cars and developed that unique skill set during his developing years. He mastered it, but that is basically all he knows. Now that the cars have had that device removed, his skills do not apply towards the new cars. It will be interesting to see if he "is ruined" or can adapt.

I think these guys have several years where they learn the pillars of F1, but aren't always correct referencing these as the cars/regulations evolve.

That is my theory.

Note, that I am certainly not a Vettel fan, but he was a machine during 3 of those 4 years. Perfect weekend after perfect weekend.

[Glyn]

The true class is Alonso, maybe the best of all time,

I find that a suprisingly bold statement especially from someone that calls himself a JimClarkcan. Not that I'm not impressed by Alonso's driving, but of all time's?

Anyway back to Vettel. I was just thinking. One of the things Vettel is really good at is driving ahead of the field. Give him clean air and like Schumacher he is able to hit every apex with millimeter precision. If you give Vettel 20 meters at the start he's gone and you probably wont see him back till after the finish.

However like Schumacher he has been less impressive in traffic (barring some inspired drives). There he looses out to streetfighters like Hamilton, Alonso and apparently Ricciardo. They are quite comfortable with having to throw a car around in turbulent air and having a lot of distraction.

Might be that it is not so much the characteristics of the car, that is bothering him, but the position he is driving.

LOL, have you ever watched formula 1 before?

[JimClarkFan]

I may not be a fan of Vettel, but I have to say, the way he drove that RedBull in pretty much all years from 2010 to 2012 (especially the later two) was a sight to behold. I remember qualifying laps of his, like in Singapore or others, where he was just on it. Made me wonder if there was anyone that you could put into that same car and get the same out of it.
Despite all this; in the WDC standings, it is 124 points (Vettel) vs 181 points (Ricciardo). That's 57 points of a difference. Now, Ricciardo had his 2nd place disqualified in Australia (18 points), but at the same time, it's hard to find a driver more unlucky this season than Vettel. With all the technical issues he's had, I personally think it's rather impressive that he trails his team-mate by only 57 points. And while factoring that in - there's also another point that Ricciardo's 3 wins have come with a fair share of luck of failing Mercedes ahead of him. All the while, what Ricciardo is achieving this year is nothing short of impressive stuff. Just don't discount Vettel yet. He's narrowed the gap quite a bit in qualifyings and isn't too far off in race pace anymore. Come 2015, I think both him and Vettel will be very close.

I take issue with people who say Vettel was a guy best suited to drive the exhaust blown diffusers. We can't tell that when his only metric for comparison is Webber. The only thing we know is that Vettel was better than Webber. Who knows what a Hamilton, or Alonso could have done given similar material.

Regarding the luck element I don't view it like that at all. This is the list of races completed this year:

Ric
Aus: DSQ
Mal: Retired
Bah: 4th
Chi: 4th
Spa: 3rd
Mon: 3rd
Can: 1st
Aus: 8th
GBR: 3rd
Ger: 4th
Hun: 1st
Spa: 1st
Ita: 6th
Sin: 3rd

Vet
Aus: Retired - Power Unit
Mal: 3rd
Bah: 6th
Chi: 5th
Spa: 4th
Mon: Retired - turbo
Can: 3rd
Aus: Retired
GBR: 5th
Ger: 6th
Hun: 7th
Spa: 5th
Ita: 5th
Sin: 2nd


Thus far, and of those 9 races where Seb and Ric have managed to both complete a race, Ric has beaten Vet 7-2. Vets two higher placings against Ric have come recently which suggests an upturn in his form. Compare that to Hamiltons off year in 2011, where Button beat him 8-7 of the 15 races they both completed. I don't think it is fair to say that Vettel has done an 'impressive' job given that he has been consistently beaten by Ric thus far, in fact I think it would be deeply unfair to Ric to point to his standings in the championship and say that 57 point deficit is down simply to luck especially when I would argue that Ric's DSQ and retirement were more costly in terms of points. I consider Ric the stand out driver of the season thus far.

It is obviously too soon to write Vettel off, we need to view his stats against Riccardio over a longer period.

[JimClarkFan]

The true class is Alonso, maybe the best of all time,

I find that a suprisingly bold statement especially from someone that calls himself a JimClarkcan. Not that I'm not impressed by Alonso's driving, but of all time's?

Anyway back to Vettel. I was just thinking. One of the things Vettel is really good at is driving ahead of the field. Give him clean air and like Schumacher he is able to hit every apex with millimeter precision. If you give Vettel 20 meters at the start he's gone and you probably wont see him back till after the finish.

However like Schumacher he has been less impressive in traffic (barring some inspired drives). There he looses out to streetfighters like Hamilton, Alonso and apparently Ricciardo. They are quite comfortable with having to throw a car around in turbulent air and having a lot of distraction.

Might be that it is not so much the characteristics of the car, that is bothering him, but the position he is driving.

I've watched F1 on and off for many years, admittedly tuning of during part of Schumachers dominance. However, of any driver that I remember and personally have watched I don't recall anyone being able to get as much out of a car. In my view he is better than Schumacher, and I believe some Ferrari engineers said as much too - so where does that put him....

I don't think we can separate the greats because we have no metric to judge some of these guys by, however Alonso is amongst the Fangio's, Clarke's, Senna and Schumacher - quite easily in my book.

[Kingshark]

If Vettel cannot reach his EBD-era form ever again - and continues to perform throughout the rest of his career as he has done in 2014 - then to me he belongs in the same bracket as Nelson Piquet. A good but not great driver who's # of championships flatter his actual talent.

[SectorOne]

and I believe some Ferrari engineers said as much too - so where does that put him....

Massa too, and he knows first hand.

[djos]

The true class is Alonso, maybe the best of all time, though now late in his career his stats will never point to him as being the best because ever since 2007 and his split from Mclaren he has never found the car he needed to win a WDC. He, and Hamilton to a lesser extent (possibly Ricciardo if he keeps this up) are the only guys who you can point to and say their talent has outshone their car.

I completely agree, Despite being a massive Webber and Ricardo fan, Alonso is imo the best all-around driver of our time. If it weren't for FiA interference* he'd have an extra WDC to his name as well.

* Tuned mass damper gate

[wgknestrick]

It's not that Vettel was "best suited" for the EBD cars. It's the fact that those were the cars he spent his prime F1 development years in. While none of us will ever know what those cars were like to drive, I can only speculate that they were tricky and unlike anything else dynamically. Vettel had the advantage of coming into a strong EBD team with very little to "unlearn" with respect to driving them. He grasped onto the EBD dynamics quickly, but now may be hampered when those dynamics are no longer there. I think this is at least a rational explanation to his past success/current struggles.

It's just my speculation, but I can at least rationalize the circumstances that would put him at an advantage relative to other "more skilled" drivers during that era, and is now at a disadvantage now. It also may be that he just wasn't "that good", but I still think Mark Weber was a respectable/average driver.

[Edax]

I've watched F1 on and off for many years, admittedly tuning of during part of Schumachers dominance. However, of any driver that I remember and personally have watched I don't recall anyone being able to get as much out of a car. In my view he is better than Schumacher, and I believe some Ferrari engineers said as much too - so where does that put him....

I don't think we can separate the greats because we have no metric to judge some of these guys by, however Alonso is amongst the Fangio's, Clarke's, Senna and Schumacher - quite easily in my book.

We can certainly agree "on amongst the best", that is pretty obvious. "The best" I'm not sure about. Actually I think this title has to go to Fangio because het won the title in an Alfa, a Maserati, a Mercedes and a Ferrari.

To win in 5 championships in four different teams in 6 years, kind of eliminates the car/team factor.

And about other drivers.I would Nelson there as well. For some reason people seem to ignore him, but he is a three time world champion and he did some pretty tense races. Plus that blue and white Brabham made everything he did look great (even on our black and white set).

LOL, have you ever watched formula 1 before?

Nah.. I just stumbled onto this site while looking for the soccer stats