Safety of car recovery (and trucks on circuits)

[SectorOne]

The pitlane is arguably the safest area on the whole track so naturally that´s the way to go in danger zones around the track.

In my opinion the pit lane is clearly the most dangerous part of the track. Even in the circa 20 years that there have been speed limits implemented, the number of injuries in the pitlane significantly outnumber those elsewhere on the circuit.

My mistake, i should have been clearer. I´m talking about an area out on track like what we had on Sunday, Sutil´s car off, tow truck out, people walking around and F1 cars flying past at 200km/h compared to a controlled environment like the pitlane.

I would agree and say that a driver just racing around the circuit with no tow trucks, people or anything else out on track is the safest. I should have worded it better.

Edit: actually i might backtrack on that one a little bit. Talking about deaths the race track far outnumbers the pitlane tenfold.
Injuries though might have been more prominent in the pitlane.
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As far as the driver initiation of the speed limit you can further divide the sector in three parts with two extra beacons with large signs next to the road saying ex, B1, B2 similar to a DRS sign.
So when an accident happens the driver gets told it´s double yellows and where he should have the pit limiter on in that sector.

[Richard]

Why over cook it? The SC flags, lights and dashboard lights seem to work perfectly well in getting the drivers to slow down. I'm sure if there is a double yellow speed limit there will be some drivers who take a few extra seconds to slow down. The stewards will establish a precedent for what is reasonable, just like they do with the SC limit.

ps - I'd apply the double yellow limit to the whole track for simplicity. Yes there might be some bunching and gaps might open or close, but it's less intrusive to the racing than a SC.

[Tim.Wright]

Applying the speed limit to the whole track would actually AVOID traffic bunching and anyone gaining an advantage. This is the idea behind a full course caution in US racing. Everyone slow down to the same speed at the same time and when you go back to green, everyone are more or less in the same position as where you left off.

The problem is how to implement it and monitor it in a robust way.

[SectorOne]

I'm sure if there is a double yellow speed limit there will be some drivers who take a few extra seconds to slow down.

then they will get a drive through.
The idea of taking a couple extra seconds to slow down would be the same scenario as skipping the pit limiter line in the pitlane.
If your car passes the beacon at 61km/h you get a drive-through for speeding.
Same thing would apply on track.

The pit lane speed limiter i would say is damn near bullet proof, so you take that system with beacons and divide each sector in three with two beacons each. You give them a sign each and a line on track.

I do however agree with Tim with a full course speed limit. My only worry with one of those is the tires.
the reason i went with the local speed limit is to minimize the effect on the tires but i have no idea idea how it actually affects them to tell you the truth. I do know they kept telling the SC to drive faster and he was going faster then 60km/h.

[i70q7m7ghw]

I'm sure if there is a double yellow speed limit there will be some drivers who take a few extra seconds to slow down.

then they will get a drive through.

They won't get a drive through if they crash in to the back of a tractor because they failed to slow down.

[Fulcrum]

Another alternative would be to enable a kill switch whenever a situation deemed dangerous is encountered. The kill switch would force all cars to a standstill in-situ, wherever they happen to be on track.

This would not only preserve race order, but maintain the current race evolution. Cars could idle in mechanical/electrical neutral for so long as the situation is deemed to be critical. Thereafter they could be allowed to return to the pit-lane at the mandated speed limit if the situation is really bad, or the race could simply be resumed as is.

[GitanesBlondes]

Another alternative would be to enable a kill switch whenever a situation deemed dangerous is encountered. The kill switch would force all cars to a standstill in-situ, wherever they happen to be on track.

This would not only preserve race order, but maintain the current race evolution. Cars could idle in mechanical/electrical neutral for so long as the situation is deemed to be critical. Thereafter they could be allowed to return to the pit-lane at the mandated speed limit if the situation is really bad, or the race could simply be resumed as is.

That's an absolute waste of money to come up with a system like that.

There's nothing wrong with the double waved yellow system, the problem is in drivers not respecting yellow flags.

Trust me, if there were no penalties for exceeding speed in a yellow area, these guys would not slow down. Slowing down means a crucial loss of time through a sector that can come back to bite you in the ass later in the race.

[SectorOne]

They won't get a drive through if they crash in to the back of a tractor because they failed to slow down.

Absolutely true, instead they will get to be apart of a crash and then be banned from the sport forever for incredibly dangerous driving.

You can´t fix stupid and so far most drivers seems to handle the pit limiter line pretty okay.
I have yet to see someone enter the pitlane at 200km/h. Have you?

[Fulcrum]

Another alternative would be to enable a kill switch whenever a situation deemed dangerous is encountered. The kill switch would force all cars to a standstill in-situ, wherever they happen to be on track.

This would not only preserve race order, but maintain the current race evolution. Cars could idle in mechanical/electrical neutral for so long as the situation is deemed to be critical. Thereafter they could be allowed to return to the pit-lane at the mandated speed limit if the situation is really bad, or the race could simply be resumed as is.

That's an absolute waste of money to come up with a system like that.

There's nothing wrong with the double waved yellow system, the problem is in drivers not respecting yellow flags.

Trust me, if there were no penalties for exceeding speed in a yellow area, these guys would not slow down. Slowing down means a crucial loss of time through a sector that can come back to bite you in the ass later in the race.

Really? How expensive can that possible be? It's a logic gate that could be implemented at board level if needed, and at the most basic software level otherwise. And surely that is a lot cheaper than some of the solutions involving replacing, upgrading or retro-fitting all of the existing infrastructure at race tracks.

And you're absolutely right; drivers don't respect double waved yellows, or any other measure for that matter, because there is significant incentive to do otherwise. Therefore, don't give drivers the ability to abuse the system at all. Manual remote over-riding or moderation of their systems (like the forced 60kph idea) seems logical, feasible, relatively safe and the cheapest alternative.

[i70q7m7ghw]

They won't get a drive through if they crash in to the back of a tractor because they failed to slow down.

Absolutely true, instead they will get to be apart of a crash and then be banned from the sport forever for incredibly dangerous driving.

You can´t fix stupid and so far most drivers seems to handle the pit limiter line pretty okay.
I have yet to see someone enter the pitlane at 200km/h. Have you?

Not the in the pits, but out on track drivers push the limits of yellow flag zones, and will most likely push the limits of this imposed 'pit limiter zone'. Unless your are suggesting the track has lines drawn on it? But how do the drivers known which line is the start of the zone? What happens to drivers already in that zone when the limit is switched on?

I've seen drivers do lots of stupid things. And yes you could say that they will be banned, but that doesn't always stick. Maldonado for example, ignored yellow flags and struck a marshall in Monaco. He was initially banned, but then that ban was lifted when some dollar bills were waved around.

[ecapox]

Diffuse axonal injury (DAI) is one of the most common and devastating types of traumatic brain injury,[1] meaning that damage occurs over a more widespread area than in focal brain injury. DAI, which refers to extensive lesions in white matter tracts, is one of the major causes of unconsciousness and persistent vegetative state after head trauma.[2] It occurs in about half of all cases of severe head trauma.

The outcome is frequently coma, with over 90% of patients with severe DAI never regaining consciousness.[2] Those who do wake up often remain significantly impaired.[3]

Other authors state that DAI can occur in every degree of severity from (very) mild or moderate to (very) severe.[4][5] Concussion may be a milder type of diffuse axonal injury.[6]

Doesn't look good for Jules. Very sad.

[i70q7m7ghw]

Another alternative would be to enable a kill switch whenever a situation deemed dangerous is encountered. The kill switch would force all cars to a standstill in-situ, wherever they happen to be on track.

This would not only preserve race order, but maintain the current race evolution. Cars could idle in mechanical/electrical neutral for so long as the situation is deemed to be critical. Thereafter they could be allowed to return to the pit-lane at the mandated speed limit if the situation is really bad, or the race could simply be resumed as is.

Incredibly dangerous. What do you think would happen if you cut the engine while the car was driving through a high speed corner? Look up lift-off oversteer.

[GitanesBlondes]

As I have already said, most of the "solutions" presented in this topic were not within the realm of being realistic, or well thought out.

Sector's speed limit proposal that mimics Le Mans was the only one that's already proven to work in real race conditions. Why anyone thinks the wheel needs to be reinvented is beyond me.

What happens when a kill switch is enabled on the run from Ascari to the Parabolica in the middle of a battle at 200MPH, and the following car doesn't get the signal while the one in front does and the following car gets launched over the fences into the crowd?

[erikhfp]

My thoughts about the accident are that no-one deserves to be killed or be seriously injured by someone else's or his/her's own mistake, especially in a sporting environment (rugby, Motorsport and so on). With regards to the safety car idea, Ericsson went off behind the safety car and even if he is not the best driver on the grid he would undoubtedly have some sort of skill to drive these cars. I remember the 2007 Canada race (I think it was Canada, the video is posted in this thread) where a driver did hit the recovery vehicle but it was at a fairly low speed. The problem I personally believe is a combination of a lot of things, drivers not driving at slow enough speeds when there are double waved yellows, marshals and track-side vehicles on the race track to recover crashed cars, etc. I feel that more must be done to slow done cars as soon as they leave the track but this also has some issues as a car can very easily dig into the gravel and end up flipping, maybe employing something similar as to what they have at Paul Ricard (I am just not sure how effective it is in wet weather). With regards to a closed cockpit, it would not have prevented a lot of the energy of the accident reaching Jules' head unless you would have used something similar to the safety cells they used in the Le Mans series but it would have prevented Massa's injury and lets not forget a few other incidents such as Alonso's close call with Grosjean in Spa, Michael Schumacer stuck under Luizzi's car in Abu Dhabi in 2010 (I think?). These were all situations that could have turned out very badly for the driver as well as the F1 community and we should rather learn from these close calls than say it was a freak accident and it won't happen and rather say how can we prevent it from being as serious as it could have been. Another incident that concerned me was when Raikkonen crashed in silverstone and debris was flying everywhere and the safety of the drivers with their heads exposed behind him with their exposed helmets concerned me more than Kimi's safety because the structural integrity of the car has been proven (Kubica in Canada). What I am trying to get at here is that we should take from this accident that we cannnot just say it was a freak accident, those drivers out there are our heroes in a sense and they deserve to continue to be that and their lives should not end on the track, we should take close calls into consideration (if we did consider what almost turned out bad in Canada 2007) then Jules might have been in Russia by now. I do know that every potentially dangerous situation cannot be covered in full, but lets at least take notice. To end my long post the best solution in my opinion in preventing cars going off track is the slow zones but again it has it's drawbacks with the tires cooling and downforce being much lower (also take into consideration the fact that the cars can aquaplane as a result of the floor planing on the water)

[GitanesBlondes]

Sure no one deserves it, but it's part of life that accidents do happen...forever as long as humans are involved, whatever the endeavor may be, there will be accidents. Also motor racing is not your typical sporting environment like football, rugby, and so on. It has inherent risks simply because it means going fast in a mechanical apparatus that is designed by human beings.

Every day people are killed by mistakes, but I would venture a guess most people here don't even raise an eyebrow because they've long ago decided that the life of a race car driver is worth inherently more than the seeming average human being.

Look around you when you are out driving and consider how dangerous every last bit of paved road is on this planet. You cannot plan for every possible contingency when it comes to motor racing. There will always be something.