Engine Unfreeze

[MOWOG]

Should we draw any conclusion from the fact that the speaker in the ESPN F1 quote was none other the late, unlamented Martin Whitmarsh?

[FoxHound]

Bingo....this has always been about pretending to cut costs even as engine costs were higher than they've ever been.

When have engines ever had to do as much as they do now, for as long as they have, whilst appeasing the "green" lobby? All in conjunction with energy recuperation and hybrid systems, and you are pointing to the freeze as evidence costs dont work?

Cmon Gitanes.

[SectorOne]

It's not about allowing in season development "like the good ol days" its only about cutting Mercedes advantage.

Yes,
however lets not forget:
DDD, Diffuser height, OT EBD, EBD all together, flexi wings part 1, flexi wings part 2, rubber noses, extreme engine maps...
All banned because other teams couldn't get them right. Now the avalanche is coming down on you and you don't like it.

But they were banned after the season, not mid season. Big difference.
Teams get to change the Engine after the season, now they want to change the rules they all signed up for because they did a bad job.

Gitanes, the unfreeze Will bring you closer to a spec series, you should advocate more open Engine rules instead of just opening up the lockddown.

[bhall II]

Read between the lines..

[...]

Read the lines.

Renault Sport F1 deputy managing director (technical) Bob White said: “A multi-year specification freeze is not really where we think the balance should be.”

“But equally, it shouldn’t be a development free-for-all that would make the necessary investment unaffordable. We’re heading towards year-on-year tightening restrictions and we think that’s a prudent and responsible approach.”

[...]

"The aim of the new regulations is to keep F1 at the pinnacle of motor sport,” added Lom, “but to do so mindful of the era in a which we operate.”

“Yesterday the sole aim of transportation was to travel from A to B as swiftly as possible. Today the technology is such that anyone can go fast – but they do so knowing resources are not unlimited and must be used with care.”

[xpensive]

Bingo....this has always been about pretending to cut costs even as engine costs were higher than they've ever been.

They are indeed bizarrely xpensive, the freeze has put Formula 1 in a situation where a Mercedes engine has become basically a necessity to win, unless they all screw up, while even flattering teams like Williams beyond any rhyme or reason.

[Juzh]

It's not about allowing in season development "like the good ol days" its only about cutting Mercedes advantage.

Yes,
however lets not forget:
DDD, Diffuser height, OT EBD, EBD all together, flexi wings part 1, flexi wings part 2, rubber noses, extreme engine maps...
All banned because other teams couldn't get them right. Now the avalanche is coming down on you and you don't like it.

But they were banned after the season, not mid season. Big difference.
Teams get to change the Engine after the season, now they want to change the rules they all signed up for because they did a bad job.

Engine unfreeze will/should/could kick in next year anyway. What are you on about here? It's not like they'll unfreeze it from this race to the next. Even if they could, F1 commission hearing is not due for another month, by which time season will be almost over.
EBD and engine maps were banned mid-season for 1 race. Flexi wings tests were altered in a matter of days mid-season, they didn't wait until the next one. Same with rubber nose. Also extreme camber set-ups, same story.

Gitanes, the unfreeze Will bring you closer to a spec series, you should advocate more open Engine rules instead of just opening up the lockddown.

One step at a time. Both should be done over time imo.

[dans79]

Read between the lines..

[...]

Read the lines.

Renault Sport F1 deputy managing director (technical) Bob White said: “A multi-year specification freeze is not really where we think the balance should be.”

“But equally, it shouldn’t be a development free-for-all that would make the necessary investment unaffordable. We’re heading towards year-on-year tightening restrictions and we think that’s a prudent and responsible approach.”

have you read the rules, It's not a "multi-year specification freeze", That's complete BS. 95% of the talking heads are spewing complete bs, trying to sway public opinion.

The teams are allowed to do engine design work all year long, however they are only allowed to implement those changes at the beginning of every season. hell, they even get to test the changes every spring before the engines are locked down for the season.

[FoxHound]

Bingo....this has always been about pretending to cut costs even as engine costs were higher than they've ever been.

They are indeed bizarrely xpensive, the freeze has put Formula 1 in a situation where a Mercedes engine has become basically a necessity to win, unless they all screw up, while even flattering teams like Williams beyond any rhyme or reason.

Yet Mclaren languish behind Ferrari and Red Bull?
"A necessity to win"? Red Bull need a merc unit to win 3 times this year?

[GitanesBlondes]

Bingo....this has always been about pretending to cut costs even as engine costs were higher than they've ever been.

When have engines ever had to do as much as they do now, for as long as they have, whilst appeasing the "green" lobby? All in conjunction with energy recuperation and hybrid systems, and you are pointing to the freeze as evidence costs dont work?

Cmon Gitanes.

Which cost per unit would be less?

Building 5 engines, or 50 of the same engine?

[dans79]

[

Which cost per unit would be less?

Building 5 engines, or 50 of the same engine?

It depends how much it costs to design the engine initially as well as the cost to physically build the engine.

[FoxHound]

Bingo....this has always been about pretending to cut costs even as engine costs were higher than they've ever been.

When have engines ever had to do as much as they do now, for as long as they have, whilst appeasing the "green" lobby? All in conjunction with energy recuperation and hybrid systems, and you are pointing to the freeze as evidence costs dont work?

Cmon Gitanes.

Which cost per unit would be less?

Building 5 engines, or 50 of the same engine?

Tell me Gitanes, did a 1999 V10...as glorious as it was, have a Hybrid recuperation system allied to KERS with batteries, only allowed to change 6 particular components of any singular change within a season, all the while adhering to the fuel consumption of 100kg limit per race?

[xpensive]

...
"A necessity to win"? Red Bull need a merc unit to win 3 times this year?

Yes, thankfully Mercedes has had the courtesy to screw up a couple of times, but lately it seems they are totally out of reach.

As for McLaren, you don't think for a second they get the same spec engines as Mercedes?

[bhall II]

have you read the rules, It's not a "multi-year specification freeze", That's complete BS. 95% of the talking heads are spewing complete bs, trying to sway public opinion.

The teams are allowed to do engine design work all year long, however they are only allowed to implement those changes at the beginning of every season. hell, they even get to test the changes every spring before the engines are locked down for the season.

Ok, now I'm going to ask that you comprehend the lines. Renault Technical Director Bob White explicitly stated in September of 2013 that the homologation rules do not constitute a multi-year development freeze, because he and others didn't feel that was appropriate for F1.

“A multi-year specification freeze is not really where we think the balance should be.”

The idea with the incremental reduction in parts is to gradually limit the scope of the development to reduce costs. Again...

“But equally, it shouldn’t be a development free-for-all that would make the necessary investment unaffordable. We’re heading towards year-on-year tightening restrictions and we think that’s a prudent and responsible approach.”

Furthermore, FIA head of powertrain Fabrice Lom stated:

“The aim of the new regulations is to keep F1 at the pinnacle of motor sport,” added Lom, “but to do so mindful of the era in a which we operate.”

“Yesterday the sole aim of transportation was to travel from A to B as swiftly as possible. Today the technology is such that anyone can go fast – but they do so knowing resources are not unlimited and must be used with care.”

[FoxHound]

...
"A necessity to win"? Red Bull need a merc unit to win 3 times this year?

Yes, thankfully Mercedes has had the courtesy to screw up a couple of times, but lately it seems they are totally out of reach.

As for McLaren, you don't think for a second they get the same spec engines as Mercedes?

If they do or don't is not going to be solved by our debate is it?
Thing is, what happens if, in this unfreeze, Mercedes extends their advantage? Unlikely sure, but a possibility.

[turbof1]

There isn't that much difference anymore between the engines. Renault and Ferrari are (a little bit) behind, but if your aero and chassis is bad, it doesn't matter what kind of engine you have. Red Bull is a solitary second, leaving williams behind in the championship with almost the same margin as mercedes leaves red bull behind.

It's still largely an aero race, people forget that. Mercedes and Red Bull just happen to have an equal good chassis. But aero will always come first in such an engine-restricted formula, that's how it is.

That being said, I personally would love to have engine development during the year. First off, as noted, these engines are massively expensive. For that money, you should expect to have some ongoing development throughout the year. Each manufacturer is backed by a very rich team, which can chip in the development costs, while the smaller teams could profit from this as well.

Does that mean that a manufacturer that did the best homework is being punished? Of course not, it means he'll enjoy a head start and if keeps working hard will keep that advantage. He just can't lay back, as it should be.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter if you go for a "during-season" freeze or "limited-development-during-season" concept. Engine development is set by a certain budget. The f1 engine departments have to make due with a bag of money all year long. They will be developing in accordance with their budget all year long, so why not get some of that development already introduced before the new season starts? Ultimately, the costs it saves in trying to fix everything with reliability upgrades and what it costs in company image is invaluable.