Engine Unfreeze

[CHT]

I'm really surprised people get so personal and vindictive about Merc's position. Every team in F1 whinges about their competitors while rebutting any complaints about themselves.

F1 isn't a charity, its a ruthless competition where teams win as a result of political means as much as technical means. Yes the engine freeze has locked in a competitive advantage for Merc, but don't blame them for exploiting that advantage. For example, we didn't see Brawn GP say "don't worry dear, we know our car was too fast in testing so we'll forfeit the DDD", or RB saying "poor didums, our EBD blowing is too effective, we'll not use in the next race".

I totally agree and I totally see no reason why Merc would to give away their competitive advantage which they took so many years and millions to built. Plus its important to remember Merc will also get bonus prize money if they are able to win two consecutive WCC.

[Sevach]

I'm really surprised people get so personal and vindictive about Merc's position. Every team in F1 whinges about their competitors while rebutting any complaints about themselves.

F1 isn't a charity, its a ruthless competition where teams win as a result of political means as much as technical means. Yes the engine freeze has locked in a competitive advantage for Merc, but don't blame them for exploiting that advantage. For example, we didn't see Brawn GP say "don't worry dear, we know our car was too fast in testing so we'll forfeit the DDD", or RB saying "poor didums, our EBD blowing is too effective, we'll not use in the next race".

I think everyone agrees that F1 teams are selfish hypocrites, yes, Ferrari would be pro freeze if the positions were reversed (likewise Mercedes would be anti).
So yeah, i totally understand that Mercedes doesn't want to give up their advantage.

But what we should be discussing is what is best for the sport, forgetting allegiance to teams and drivers.
Frozen engines? In season development? Bigger development opportunities in general?

Personally i think millions in aero development and frozen engines is a pretty stupid rule, and not at all good for the sport.

On another topic, will Mercedes get kicked out of strategy group if they vote against the agreed?

[Richard]

Best for the sport would be limited engine updates, say 2 per season to allow teams to correct howling errors, but not a free for all arms race.

[SectorOne]

Funnily enough Ferrari and Renault was perfectly happy with frozen engine formulas between 2006 and 2013.
Could it be that back then the performance difference was so small that unfreezing the engine would be a waste of money and that right now it´s only to close the gap, regardless of the BS lines Mattiacci wants to imprint in our heads?

[toraabe]

Auto Motor und sport has revealed information that the current Renault engine is still 85 hp down on Mercedes and 18 kg more heavy . And requires more space and cooling etc.....
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 72712.html

[Richard]

regardless of the BS lines Mattiacci wants to imprint in our heads?

It's also a rather useful scapegoat. A bit like saying "we completely messed up but don't blame us, blame the regs"

[bhall II]

Funnily enough Ferrari and Renault was perfectly happy with frozen engine formulas between 2006 and 2013.
Could it be that back then the performance difference was so small that unfreezing the engine would be a waste of money and that right now it´s only to close the gap, regardless of the BS lines Mattiacci wants to imprint in our heads?

Actually, Renault required special dispensation to equalize its engine.

In any case, the V8s were homologated after a full season's worth of updates by all manufacturers, meaning teams developed them on-track rather than showing up to the first race of the season with an unproven powertrain that's nonetheless frozen.

And while I'm at it, I don't understand the comparisons between an in-season PU freeze and any given advantage a team previously held over the field, because the current situation is unprecedented; there are no valid comparisons to be made. Until now, every team had free rein to copy and develop components to improve their performance, be it the double-diffuser, the EBD, the f-duct, or whatever, and they could do so at any time.

I also don't understand Mercedes' continual assertions that a PU defrost will cost more money if we already know development is ongoing regardless of the update schedule. It's a logical fallacy at best, but it appears to be the lone point of their defense.

Frankly, I'd respect their position a hell of a lot more if they'd just be honest about it instead of hiding behind a veil of cost control, which is laughable coming from a team that just spent over a half-billion dollars to win the Championships.

No, just come out and say it: "We have the best PU, and everyone else can go --- themselves."

I actually think I could get behind that.

Finally, you'd think after the sport implemented double points that more people would realize that just because something is codified doesn't make it a good idea. Maybe if Rosberg robs Hamilton in Abu Dhabi, that reality will hit home.

[Richard]

Finally, you'd think after the sport implemented double points that more people would realize that just because something is codified doesn't make it a good idea. Maybe if Rosberg robs Hamilton in Abu Dhabi, that reality will hit home.

That's the perfect example. While most sane people think double points is nonsense, we don't expect the winner in Abu Dhabi to say to his rival, 'These double points aren't fair, I'll just stop on the final corner to let you pass'. So why expect Merc to do that with respect to engines?

[SectorOne]

Actually, Renault required special dispensation to equalize its engine.

Because they built an inferior engine. Same thing as today except they have worded it differently and have Ferrari behind them because they are largely in the same boat.

Is this really Formula 1? One manufacturer on a consistent basis gets saved because they themselves build inferior engines?
It´s not like someone told them about the rules before making the engine, they all signed off on the new rules.

In any case, the V8s were homologated after a full season's worth of updates by all manufacturers, meaning teams developed them on-track rather than showing up to the first race of the season with an unproven powertrain that's nonetheless frozen.

And what effect did it really have? Were engines in 2006 so out of sync with each other that one year of unfreezing suddenly made all engines equal? Isn´t Renault proof of that not being the case?

And while I'm at it, I don't understand the comparisons between an in-season PU freeze and any given advantage a team previously held over the field, because the current situation is unprecedented; there are no valid comparisons to be made. Until now, every team had free rein to copy and develop components to improve their performance, be it the double-diffuser, the EBD, the f-duct, or whatever, and they could do so at any time.

Well except the V8 engine. The only change to the V8 engine was Renault asking the FIA to compensate for their inferior engine even though as you stated, had one year of development before the freeze.

So the only real difference from the V8 era to the V6 era is you can now modify your engine more over the years.
The problem is Ferrari and Renault can´t wait. They don´t even know how their latest iteration for 2015 will stack up against the Mercedes engine.

I´ll say it right now, if they see it stacks up with the Mercedes PU all this talk will cease to exist in Australia.
Mattiacci will pull another BS line saying "oh you know, saving money is actually pretty good"

I also don't understand Mercedes' continual assertions that a PU defrost will cost more money if we already know development is ongoing regardless of the update schedule. It's a logical fallacy at best, but it appears to be the lone point of their defense.

Actually most teams i´ve heard speak about the unfreeze holds the same opinion.
In fact the customer teams number 1 criteria for this go-ahead is that the extra cost do not fall on them, if the engine manufacturers want to go all out on a spending spree it should not affect their costs when buying the engines.

[Sevach]

That's the perfect example. While most sane people think double points is nonsense, we don't expect the winner in Abu Dhabi to say to his rival, 'These double points aren't fair, I'll just stop on the final corner to let you pass'. So why expect Merc to do that with respect to engines?

No one expects them to do that, because they are just as self interested as the others.
The question is, is their decision to protect their interests good for sport overall?

[bhall II]

That's the perfect example. While most sane people think double points is nonsense, we don't expect the winner in Abu Dhabi to say to his rival, 'These double points aren't fair, I'll just stop on the final corner to let you pass'. So why expect Merc to do that with respect to engines?

For the same reason why double points are likely to be abandoned next year: it's a bad idea.

[...]

Actually most teams i´ve heard speak about the unfreeze holds the same opinion.
In fact the customer teams number 1 criteria for this go-ahead is that the extra cost do not fall on them, if the engine manufacturers want to go all out on a spending spree it should not affect their costs when buying the engines.

The point is that the spending spree is already happening, and everyone is already paying for it, and it will continue until powertrains are frozen in perpetuity. In other words, the lack of production brought on by the update freeze does not, and cannot, alter the development race. It is what it is.

[kooleracer]

For me as a fan I would very much like to see the engine freeze being lifted. But as I fan i would also like to see 11 teams on the grid next year. The facts are Renault, Mercedes and Ferrari (Honda) agreed to the engine freeze as a cost cutting measure. The financial climate of F1 is still poor, especially for the teams on back of the grid. Lifting the freeze would mean extra cost or falling behind even more because your competitors are getting new upgrades and you are not.

The best for F1 at the moment is not having one manufacturer dominating the sport because, we have just came from such a period and the show wasn't great in that period. If the teams wan't to unfreeze the engine they should agree on one important thing first, costs! The costs of buying/leasing/hiring a powerunit package ( gearbox for some teams included) the price they pay in the future should not be more then 10% of what they are paying now. So if Force India pays Mercedes 20m dollars a season, Force India should get every update if they unfreeze the engine for an extra 2m dollars for as long their current contract is running with Mercedes HPP. If engine manufacturers with deep pockets want to innovate that's no problem, but the teams shouldn't be buried with costs that they can't fit in their budgets that are really tight already. The manufacturers have enough budget to pay for the innovation of the engines themselves and if they don't want to pay for the innovation then should stop talking about unfreezing the engine development.

[Richard]

For the same reason why double points are likely to be abandoned next year: it's a bad idea.

Hopefully the engine freeze will also change after this season.

[CBeck113]

One thing seems to be missing in this discussion: all the engine suppliers have been loads of money to see which changes can be made within the current rules to get the maximum performance, along with Ferrari & Renault seeing where their defecits in performance are, regardless of the rules. If they see that they cannot catch up using the 49% (or however much it is), then they need to raise their voices. The development work is happening with or without the rule change, so the money is being spent. If the manufacturers roll those costs on to their clients is a completely different story, and has nothing to do with the rules but only the costs/budgets of the teams.

[bhall II]

Hopefully the engine freeze will also change after this season.

That's my hope, too. I've never thought this rule, or any rule, should be changed mid-season, because I despise mid-season rule changes.

Nothing can take away what Mercedes has accomplished this year, and they deserve their success. For me, this is about moving toward something that actually makes sense.